Incubator:Requests for deletions/Requests

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Wp/enm

The Middle English Incubator has been largely abandoned by the project creators, appearing now to be headed by a "CanadianToast", who doesn't claim any level of literacy in the language. It is being completely overrun by "meme" edits and inaccurate language. I couldnt find a single editor who advertises any understanding of the language. The few pages that do exist, are largely inaccurate, minuscule, or irrelevant. 46.208.10.44 14:02, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Keep - Instead of complaining and trying to delete the entire project you could just contribute to it. The way you're speaking makes it seem like you are knowledgeable in Middle English and could help fix issues. That is a whole lot better than getting rid of everything so many people have spent time building. It's not that hard to mend 100 articles. I'm a newer learner of Middle English, and I understand that some of my edits may not be accurate but I welcome any and all corrections to my work. This project has been inactive for some time, and myself and a few other editors are doing our best to revive it. --CanadianToast (talk) 19:47, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Fixing the existing pages isn't practical currently in my opinion, all it takes is a "Frogge / Dogge / Pigge" comedy video going viral again, and you'll immediately have dozens of people making non-serious edits for their own fun. Without fluent moderation to prevent that, it just allows a free-for-all to take place, leading to the Incubator looking extremely unprofessional and unappealing for more fluent users. Barring an extreme change to the method of moderation, I don't see a positive reason for the continued existence of the project, thus my request. --46.208.10.44 22:53, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Just look in the recent changes, most of the changes are not joke edits and those that are get reverted. Btw, you can revert those joke edits yourself if you notice them. Also, you can ask an admin to ban the users who vandalize. Fixing the existing pages is very practical and is happening. Also, Middle English Wikipedia grows by several pages every day and those aren’t joke edits. To conclude, the actual contribution by far outweigh the joke edits. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 07:12, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Move to Incubator Plus, by simple keeping we only got more and more scowiki-like problems, I see no reason this language will be accepted by langcom, but still useful for non-WMF materials. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226 How would one go about starting a project on Incubator Plus? --CanadianToast (talk) 16:36, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

And how do you think that this project can be accepted? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:26, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean? --CanadianToast (talk) 03:55, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

@CanadianToast: Per m:LPP:

Ancient or historical languages Only Wikisource wikis in ancient or historical languages are accepted, because resources in such languages continue to be important to the world, even in the absence of native, living speakers of those languages. Where possible, such languages should be bundled with the modern equivalent Wikisource project (such as Old English with English), though that is not required.

--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226: Ah, I see. So it looks like it doesn't have a good chance of being accepted, but despite this I think it should be kept here. There are other projects in similar situations on Incubator and Middle English Wikipedia has been here since at least 2005 if I'm not mistaken. However, I'm not entirely opposed to moving it to Incubator Plus. --CanadianToast (talk) 17:05, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Afaik, "Incubator Plus" is supposed to work like Incubator, just that it isn't Incubator. --MF-W {a, b} 08:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. --CanadianToast (talk) 17:33, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

That is correct. It has the same prefix system and can draw images from Commons. The only true difference is that it is hosted by Miraheze and not Wikimedia, which allows Wikimedia Plus to host projects that are rejected from here. --OWTB (talk) 09:01, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Keep I agree with CanadinToast, if you know that there are mistakes in our Middle English, why don’t you correct it? Also if you look on the test wiki activity, you can clearly see that on January it has received more attention and much more people have contributed so there’s no any reason to delete it. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 08:33, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

If there’s inaccurate language you can correct it, then ping the user who made the mistake and explain why it’s inaccurate. I’m sure most of the users try to write as accurately as possible. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 08:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Also, @ScriptorHistoriae: told in the proposal page that while he thinks that the proposal is weak, the test wiki is impressive that he think it can be created once we have more than 100 pages. If I’m not mistaken we already have more than that. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 18:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: Wikipedia isn't the only wiki to describe in one language, we have many other opinions. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:35, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226:, what do you mean? Also, about the statement that only wikisources can exist in an ancient or historical language, it’s written in Wp/enm:"This test has a valid language code, but note that it is an extinct, historical or ancient language so it will be hard to get a Wikimedia project." Yes, I agree that it’s hard but it’s not impossible so I don’t see why you want to close it. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 07:55, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: If you think that there should really have an enm.wikipedia.org, you may try to request it at Meta-Wiki, but then what will be happened? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:08, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

• Delete or move, whatever. The Language Policy is crystal clear about ancient languages: no new projects are to be created. They seldom get substantial: those few that can write in the language usually abandon their hobby after a few months. This is, of course, a problem with wikis in regional languages too, but these are supported by ideals (language preservation, emancipation, alternative perspectives) that wikis in ancient languages fail to meet. Besides, in its written form, the English language has changed little since the twelfth century. You could say a Middle English Wikipedia already exists. Its similarity to Modern English also means that this project is likely to attract non-expert edits à la sco.wiki, as has already been pointed out above. Steinbach (talk) 11:02, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Middle English Wikipedia is not a new wiki-it was created in 2009. Also, this specific wiki is substantial-just look in the recent edits or press "Check Test Wiki Activity". And also, Middle English is different from Modern English so it’s impossible to say that Modern English Wikipedia is a Middle English Wikipedia. And to all the people who say it attracts joke edits, all wikis attract joke edits so you might as well shut down the Wikimedia Foundation if you are gonna use that sort of logic. Do you know how many joke edits in English Wikipedia survive for several days? Also, it’s written that deleting a test wiki isn’t related to the LangCom. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 06:26, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

@Gifnk dlm 2020: The third proposal for such an enm.wikipedia was rejected 4 years ago as "An extinct proto-language." I don't see why you have reasons to contest. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 06:56, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226:, because this test wiki is very active so I think that this rule should change. This test wiki is prospering in the Incubator but if it is moved to incubator plus I think many people would lose interest. Also, if we allow wikis in historical languages, this will prove the point that there are wikis in ALL languages and might encourage speakers of endangered languages to contribute to wikis in those endangered languages. Also, some people might be interested only in editing in historical languages wiki at first, but then spread out and also edit in wikis in modern languages and this will be beneficial for all wikimedia projects. Wikis in historical languages are usually not active not because people don’t want to edit in those languages but because people are not aware of those wikis. If you know people who know Middle English you can tell them about this wiki, and you can also read a bit about the differences between Modern English and Middle English and then contribute by yourself. I recommend you use this Middle English dictionary. (BTW, the message about contributing is not specifically to you but to all the users who read this). -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 08:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Keep --PastelKos (talk) 11:09, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Why? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:01, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226:, idk why you expect him to answer if you haven’t pinged him but there are many arguments for keeping it above. Also, I don’t see what you or anyone else can gain from deleting Middle English Wikipedia. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 14:25, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

I would like to add that people interested in ancient languages can start editing wikis in those ancient languages and then expand to other wikis which will be beneficial to the entire wikimedia foundation. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 09:50, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Please feel free to do so, by submitting here. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:23, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226:, thank you very much for your reply! The reason I haven’t submitted yet is because I’m not sure which way is better: submitting a fourth request with all the arguments why I think there should be wikis in ancient languages or first post a request for comment from an admin requesting to change the policy. Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 12:52, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

If there’s now an open request, doesn’t that mean that this proposal should be closed? -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 08:56, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226: In Incubator:Requests for deletions it’s written that you can only request to delete test wikis that don’t have a proposal or were rejected. This test wiki now has an open proposal so shouldn’t the proposal to delete this test wiki be closed? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 16:00, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Because the proposal has been rejected, which nobody is surprised about. I suggest moving this project somewhere else. --MF-W {a, b} 21:14, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

This is just why I voted "move to Incubator Plus" instead of "delete" above, since this language code isn't suitable for Wikipedia, and the contents look very well. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:28, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Comment I emailed a Miraheze administrator today to see if they're interested in taking over this test project or not, this will let this project be a domained, though not part of WMF, encyclopedia project. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:13, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Comment I posted a request for comment at meta to change the policy. If the content really looks very well then using common sense it should be allowed to stay. Despite the fact that I have only left the request today, two people have already left comments expressing their support. Moving those wikis from WMF will cause a migration of users from WMF, however keeping them will cause users interested in ancient languages to join WMF and they might expand their reach to other projects as well. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 19:55, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@Prosfilaes, Future Perfect at Sunrise: What's your opinions on their RFC? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:04, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

And Gifnk dlm 2020, your RFC has recently got two oppose responses, so I don't know how I can support you, as that said, Good Bye, your works very well, but the WMF is a dead stone for you and me, that WMF won't change anything here. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Keep That's the purpose of Incubator after all. Even if scowiki-like problems occur, it's clear that it's under development and not a full-fledged wiki. Unless there is something seriously wrong with the wiki, that is. Leaderboard (talk) 15:34, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Keep This is an Incubator wiki, not a distinct Wikipedia that's actually got a subdomain. Delete the trash articles, but keep the rest. --Sailor Ceres (talk) 02:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

@Sailor Ceres: thank you very much for your support! Unfortunately currently ancient languages are not eligible for new wikis so some users think that it’s pointless to keep the test wikis. There has been a request to change this policy and it can be found here. If this request is approved then it will be just as yours suggested. The trash articles will be deleted, and the test will be kept. This is not canvassing, just informing. Also, @Leaderboard: thank you very much! It’s a bit weird in my opinion that you wrote neutral in the RfC, your comments look like a support for me😅. -Gifnk dlm 2020 (talk) 15:38, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

User:Gifnk dlm 2020: I see that preparations for exporting the project are now being made. I also see that the strange happenings on the RFC (who even understands what's going on there anymore? …) have caused some panic about the allegedly impending deletion of the Wp/enm pages. I do think that it probably makes sense to delete the test-project if policy stays at not allowing approval of it, but I also wanted to assure you all that we won't delete the pages all of a sudden. If the contributors want to save their work elsewhere, we have always made this possible. --MF-W {a, b} 19:38, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

@MF-Warburg:, I see. Thank you very much! I will inform the other users in the discussion page. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 20:56, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd prefer delete it because it's useless LOLI'mfriggin silly (talk) 12:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Keep Knowing what Wikipedia is supposed to be, I mean Wikipedia's first and direct duty as a duty to share information. It doesn't matter what language, or in what way. Middle English is a historical language, of high cultural and linguistic significance. A Wikipedia project based on Middle English will allow us to look at Wikipedia not as a collection of conservatives who flinch at every rustle, but as a courageous and progressive community, able to show how knowledge relevant to modern humanity would have been communicated in earlier times. I deeply support this and other experimental language projects. Only a person who knows a certain language is capable of soberly assessing the possibilities of that language in terms of information transmission, and although it is not always possible to convince others of this, we should not give up, but we must fight and defend our point of view and the right to preserve and develop our language divisions. This is the only way we can prove to everyone that the future does not lie in blind conservatism, and that the old rules are not always applicable and objective, they do not always work for the development of Wikipedia and humanity as a whole. If we want to achieve something, we should not be constrained by biased rules, even though they cannot constrain us. If we want to achieve something, we must walk not only off the beaten path, but also on roads without trails. Only through long and difficult experiments, only by overcoming many of the heaviest prejudices has humanity reached the high level of development where it is today. Man created microcontrollers, flew to the moon, photographed other planets in his solar system and looked into the farthest depths of the universe, studied the structure of matter and various natural phenomena. Although we still have a long way to go, and much can still be turned upside down in our scientific understanding, without experimentation and work we will not know or verify anything. I am sure that if every pioneer, scientist, and inventor had someone behind him to forbid experimentation when their research had not reached the middle of nowhere, we would be writing with goose quills on parchment today, and we would only dream of modernity with its blessings and inventions. At least let Middle English be one of those swallows that will lead Wikipedia to prosperity in the future.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 17:06, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

@Calad-ne-dúath

• "but as a courageous and progressive community" isn't true, see [1], all of their "efforts" are judged by one langcom member as "Thank you for the personal attacks."
• "Only a person who knows a certain language is capable of soberly assessing the possibilities of that language in terms of information transmission" That's just the concerns to the wiki, one of the writting style of webpages, not strongly about what you're speaking.
• "This is the only way we can prove to everyone that the future does not lie in blind conservatism" I guess Fandom can also do it. With the current Foundation's review, I would say non of these Ancient, Extinct and/or Historical languages are considered to have a new wiki, that said on m:LPP, The Wikimedia Foundation does not seek to develop new linguistic entities, not Wikipedia.
• "we should not be constrained by biased rules" Not really true for every one, at least I'd love to do something that do "constrained by biased rules". Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

• This request for deletion should be rejected because there’s an open request at meta. -Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 (talk) 09:30, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

  It will likely to be rejected, so this deletion request isn't invalid. Also, I would warn you that your comments like this are in fact violating the cleanstart rule, please do not do so by just once anymore, or otherwise I'll report your behaviors via some proper ways. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:29, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

  Comment, I’m Gifnk dlm 2020 and I have already voted above. Please don’t count this as another vote, just as a comment. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:50, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

  @Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 Did you really read the Clean start page? It also requires must avoid editing patterns or behaviors that would allow other users to recognize and identify the account. Unless if you can fully cancel words like "should be rejected because there’s an open request at meta" (e.g. by just striking them), you're still violating, and if such return-behaviors still occur, include "keeping Wp/enm", then... I'd love to not repeat what I will do. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:26, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Liuxinyu970226:, I’m not pretending to do a clean start. I have clarified the relationship between the accounts and this is a fully disclosed sockpuppet. I have written not to mention this as a vote just as a comment. I have also mentioned in my userpage that I have previously edited as User:Gifnk dlm 2020. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:59, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Leaderboard:, sorry to bother you but since you explained in Talk:Wp/enm maybe you can try? I’m not trying to hide the fact that the accounts are related so I don’t see why I shouldn’t continue the editing patterns. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 12:09, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  I have striked out the comment you don’t like but IMO it’s obvious that I have been editing in good faith. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:00, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Liuxinyu970226: Stop it. You are needlessly assuming malice from a user, despite all signs showing that the user has done nothing wrong. You've been clearly told on what this user's intention was (here and on Wikibooks, if not elsewhere); it's bordering on harassment. For some reason, you're bent on applying a specific Wikipedia rule that doesn't even apply in this case.

  At worst it's a case of that user having a sockpuppet that is clearly disclosed - this is not against Wikimedia policies and I expect someone like you to know this. Leaderboard (talk) 14:06, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Leaderboard It's not a Wikipedia-specific rule, but a global ruler-of-behavior, so the actual man should "Stop it" IS YOU, NOT ME. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Liuxinyu970226: As I told you before, that user can be construed to using a sockpuppet that has clearly been disclosed. Please use common sense.

  (Plus the rule you cited has never been formally approved, but that's off-topic here) Leaderboard (talk) 14:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Liuxinyu: This is nonsense and you should know it. Please stop attacking this user who calls you out on it and stop attacking the other user of sockpuppetry. --MF-W {a, b} 20:17, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  Ah ok I stopped it. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:56, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  To Slava Ukraini... thx. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

It's really time to close this discussion. As it has dragged on for a long time and there is quite some content in Wp/enm, I propose to leave a month's time until the deletion of the project, so that the test-wiki contributors can save the content somewhere else, if they want to. Then, we will delete it on or after June 1. --MF-W {a, b} 20:17, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

@MF-Warburg:, I have informed about this in Talk:Wp/enm. -🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦Ukraini🇺🇦Heroyam🇺🇦Slava🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 11:03, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

• The projects running by just one or two regular users are problematic, especially if they are not native speakers and they are biased. Well, that's not like I'm denying the Russia's crimes against Ukraine (yes I'm not denying), but this bulk of edits, in addition to other problems mentioned above, looks like a clear political POV pushing. E.g. the statement that Russia/Muscovy stole the Ukraine's historical name looks comic since "Русь" inherited from a Finno-Ugric word meaning the people of Eastern Sweden (cf. Finnish 'Ruotsi' as the term for Sweden), and only in the XII century "Русь" became somewhat an umbrella term for the East Slavic tribes (not just those who lived in the modern-time Ukraine). Ukraine stole the name from Swedes, Russia just stole the stolen, believe that guy! I'm wondering how many schizo-theories may contain the project of the Middle English Wikipedia already, and how many it will contain. Sometimes it's better to do something helpful without pretending to be a Wikipedian. --Wolverène (talk) 08:23, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

  Let's not get into a discussion about this. The deletion is already decided upon. -- MF-W {a, b} 11:58, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Wp/odt, Wt/odt and Wp/dum

Believe me, this hurts! I love the older stages of my native language.

But we can't keep them, per language policy, and for the obvious reason that these projects haven't gained momentum. Old Dutch is very scantily transmitted, you'd have to reconstruct just too many words to even write a lemma about medieval things. It also has far fewer proficient readers than Old English. Middle Dutch does have a rich literature in all genres from religion to accountancy, and (in its written form) is much more different from modern Dutch than Middle English is from modern English, but again, a Wikipedia in it would violate policy and would probably never be succesful. And it, too, might attract nonsense edits. Steinbach (talk) 11:12, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Weak keep: On a first glance, the quality looks relatively well, so I wouldn't mind keeping them here. In case, the community decides otherwise, I will gladly export it to Incubator Plus as it would be a shame to see what little is there being deleted. --OWTB (talk) 20:32, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not commenting on their quality (btw wasn't it you who created both of them years ago). I'm just saying: why keep them here if there is absolutely no chance that they will ever be approved? Steinbach (talk) 17:06, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

I have only created the main pages to accompany any pre-existing subpages. The reason for not deleting them is that, while there is no chance for a subdomain, they are according to our policy valid, as they have an ISO-code. Deleting good contents is always unnecessary. As I'm more or less neutral to keeping them (and Wt/odt?) here, I am always willing to export them to Incubator Plus. --OWTB (talk) 07:59, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

OWTB, I'd love to also mention Wt/odt in this section as it looks also badly contributed. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:26, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Regareless, delete both, having bad quality articles that are wrongly maintained. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

In case of deletion, please let me know, and I'll transfer them to Incubator Plus. --OWTB (talk) 06:11, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Ooswesthoesbes I don't think they need to be exported since they are possibly copyvio pages. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:26, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

The Old Dutch (odt) tests don't look like they are copyvio pages though. The Middle Dutch (dum) do look more suspicious. --OWTB (talk) 20:55, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Wp/sjn

Rejected request at Meta. 4 content pages, all added in the last month. I think the editor should be given the chance to save their work before it's deleted since it is an ineligible conlang. -Yupik (talk) 00:23, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Hello! I would expect to receive a justification for the removal of this project. This project is currently developing and has all the prospects for further growth.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 11:21, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
• I presented a couple of additional arguments in defense of the project and refuted the arguments made by those not interested in preserving it. Also, I want to separately note that all of these arguments against the project are, by now, outdated. In this regard, I am in favor of reconsidering this decision.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 15:33, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
• Keep for reasons in m:Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Sindarin 2.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 11:56, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
• Keep for the time being, because a request is created on Meta: m:Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Sindarin 2. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:45, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Delete. I don't believe in success of the request for creation of the project. None of the Wikimedia projects in a fictional language exist. The possibility of creation of Wikipedias in ancient (natural) languages causes bloody disputes in MetaWiki, Wikipedias in constructed languages - way more useful - look doubtful for many, how we can take seriosly the Sindarin WP. However, I respect your interest. --Wolverène (talk) 07:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Hello Wolverene. I have no objection to your skepticism, nevertheless I argue in the possibility of translating wikipedia both into Sindarin and other constructed languages and into languages of antiquity. Modern technology makes it possible to do such translation in an automated way, provided there is a sufficiently large corpus of texts in the target language. Since the Internet today is a boundless ocean of information, you can find texts in almost any language, as well as reference information, and in some cases qualified specialists. Thus, I was able to form a small text corpus for the neural network. My experiments in terms of training the neural network automatic translation in Sindarin, in turn, also confirm the feasibility of the implementation of this plan. So I am sure that sooner or later, if there are people interested in translating Wikipedia into one language or another, this translation will be done. Please, don't bury something that is almost paved the way for.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 18:39, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Wolverène thank you for your opinion one more time. And, I bring some arguments. Particulary, this:

The approach taken during the work on the wikipedia section on Sindarin is potentially beneficial for the further development of wikipedia as a whole, as it involves some new methods for creating textual content.

If we take Ancient Egyptian as an example, training a neural network on texts from Ancient Egyptian manuscripts would greatly speed up the translation of articles into Ancient Egyptian. Since any language is a system which can be described mathematically, under certain conditions (linguists who know the language of Ancient Egypt and programmers will have to be involved) it is possible to create an algorithmic apparatus which can automatically reconstruct the necessary words and turns of speech for the target language.

Reconstructing the words of an arbitrary language is easily solved by means of a Markov chain algorithm. It is the easiest way to solve it, and quite efficient for cases where only the set of words is known, but the rules of the language are unknown. In the case of Sindarin, and, as I assume, with the ancient Egyptian language, the set of rules of word formation is known. In such a situation, having a set of ready-made rules, it is always possible to write a program that will allow, observing all these rules, to construct words in an arbitrary number and with a given set of characteristics or even meanings.

And so I am sure of the underestimation of the wikipedia project on Sindarin and its importance.

I'm sure no one will have to fight for space for new language sections on Wikipedia after this. If you think I should first establish myself on a project for one of those ancient languages over which there is bitter controversy, show me that project. Although I think I would be more useful and produce a better result if I did the project of translating Wikipedia into a language I know, I'm not afraid of new things.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 11:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

• Keep because this project have some content. @Wolverène: What is eo:, vo:, lfn:, ia:, ie:? 103.6.198.192
  • These are Wikipedias in auxlangs. It's different from Sindarin which is an artlang and used for its more narrow purpose. --Wolverène (talk) 08:58, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
• Keep there’s a community of speakers. While it’s true that it has a “narrow” purpose next to international auxiliary languages, wikis in Lingua Franca Nova aren’t much more useful than this one. -Gifnk dlm 2020 If only Middle English Wikipedia could be saved(talk) 09:22, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
  • I think even Simlish may has an IRL community of speakers...
    Just try to use Sindarin to describe such concepts and events as (here are random ones) en:quantum mechanics, en:gamma-ray burst, en:Lutheranism, en:tundra shrew, en:Watergate scandal, en:Cuban Missile Crisis, and so on.
    Curiously enough, but if we had enough linguistic material, we could describe all of this stuff e.g. in any natural aboriginal moribund language, although the formulating would be often much more compicated comparing to definition written in more spread lingua franca. I also believe that these concepts could be even described in several ancient languages, like Latin or Ancient Greek, - although during the eras of ancient languages the terms and concepts of the modern world didn't exist, using scientific data we can at least guess how ancient people might've described the modern things, and it's an interesting experience if performed by professional linguists. Also needless to say about international auxiliary languages. In LFN the specific concepts would probably be described in a same way as natural creole languages do, Kotava has special a priori language methods of implementing new words, Esperanto is as same developed as natural languages.
    Now back to the Sindarin language. It is totally unable to describe things like 'gamma-ray burst' or 'Lutheranism', because the language is spoken by Tolkienesqe Elves who never existed in reality, resp. they never crossed paths with the events of the real world, and Tolkien didn't complete the language enough to make it used especially for the knowledge sharing (surely you know that Wikipedia exists exactly for the knowledge sharing). --Wolverène (talk) 13:07, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

    @Wolverène Sindarin can describe Quantum mechanics, gamma-ray burst, and another concepts and events. Luther, Cuba are proper names. If we want them to be immediately recognizable in the text, we may not translate them into Sindarin. Gamma is the name of a letter of the Greek alphabet, and is absent from the Sindarin script. In Tengwar it corresponds to the Tengva Ungwe, but the reader will not immediately understand what it means. Therefore, we can also transliterate the word "gamma" without change. We have: raeth Ungwe-glîn \ raeth 'amma-glîn, Lutheras, Cuba. If we want to transliterate the name of Cuba, we get Daerhad, and without a clue most readers will not immediately know what it is about and will probably want to keep the word in the original. Quantum mechanics is godanmaenas glinui. Thainad Ventol vi Cuba, Thainad Ventol vi Daerhad. Amlabgaeth vi Ninannon, Amlabgaeth vi Watergate, Amlabgaeth Watergate, and Rhosgarch Rudhorodui. It's simple.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 10:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

    @Wolverène When I asked for information about Simlish, I found the following information: this language is based on a large number of natural languages from which it borrows its vocabulary. I did not manage to find the exact rules of Simlish. However, the Simlish language is popular and serves as a language of creative expression for some music groups. Whether it is possible to record and reproduce information about the world around us in this language is an open question. Since the main goal in creating Simlish was to briefly and clearly convey information about the state of the game's characters without spending money on additional localization of their lines, this language is intuitively understandable to the target audience of The Sims game for which it was created. I do not know exactly whether Simlish has enough textual data to be used to train a neural network for automated translation to convey and retain information. However, this language is outside my area of expertise, and I am not in a position to answer for it. Perhaps someday someone will come to translate Wikipedia into Simlish, but let those directly affected be concerned.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 14:16, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

  • P.S. What's for the usage of mathematical algorithms for creating articles in Sindarin, which was proposed by @Calad-ne-dúath, I can imagine a possible result: a story generator-like texts with inclusions of AI generated words in cases when a term in Sindarin is unknown. BoredHumans.com does it for long, but in English. Assuming that the knowledge sharing purpose will be already relegated to the background and everyone would be agree with it, I'm not sure that definitions modeled like 'Wolf is a red rabbit who rides the yellow trees' will be useful for intellectual pleasure of Tolkien fans.
    For me AI generated texts are even a bigger evil than online translations which devalue the intellectual work of speakers of any language other than English, moreover in an imperfect manner. Technically, AI generated texts in languages with a smaller speaking community (like Sindarin, hell we assume it has a speaking community...) may contain anything, even a complete nonsense, and the enthusiasts will always justify it by smaller known vocabulary. Once I saw AI generated texts in (natural) Veps language, it was a total disaster. Imagine same with Sindarin. --Wolverène (talk) 13:07, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

    @Wolverène, I thank you for your opinion. I understand your concern about this problem very well. No, I do not approve of surrealistic texts in Sindarin that have the "the wolf is a red rabbit" look. Their use can be valuable for training a neural network to translate, but it makes no sense to use such texts for training transformer-class neural networks, unless the goal of such neural networks is knowingly to generate surrealistic texts. Such a neural network would be very interesting to see, but it is a dabble for a couple of evenings. When I do automated text corpus generation, I aim to fill it with sentences formed on the principle of existing texts using Sindarin and natural languages, and, if necessary, manually, or also automatically - using algorithms based on pre-formulated rules - remove lines that do not meet the requirements. Let us imagine that there is a certain dictionary in which each word has many tags. Generating and checking rules use these tags, generating texts that look like what is really possible. For example, a tagged first-person singular verb denoting an action is placed at the beginning of the line, followed by an action verb infinitive, and so on. Subjects, predicate clauses, prepositions, and prearranged turns of speech are all combined in a large number of variants and formed in an arbitrary number. Any phrase, any sentence, and any word can be broken down into its components, set tags, and then use those tags to form words and phrases. Knowing in advance the effect of manipulating the individual elements of a word or phrase, you can also set its meaning, avoiding "bottomless ducks swimming in a square sky". So, I want to say that automation in the formation of a text corpus is a necessary and useful thing, it easily simplifies such a difficult task. But that's if we're talking about automation, which requires the creation of previously nonexistent content. If we want to get existing content ever uploaded to the Internet in some form, this is where python scripts come to our aid, capable of easily loading all texts from a search engine with and without translations, and filtering out repetitive strings. Later, a self-written script can check these texts line by line and output new formulas for automated phrase generation. In short, there are many different subtleties in this business, but it is thanks to them that we are now able to make translation into arbitrary languages possible, even if this task, for individual languages among them, seemed previously unimaginable.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 10:03, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Comment We have gone through this again and again. Personally I don't think fictional languages should be eligible for a Wikipedia. The main reason for this is practical rather than a matter a principle. We only had one such project long ago, a Klingon Wikipedia, and it didn't succeed. Experience has learnt that such languages are unlikely to sustain a viable community. Second, while Klingon has a well-developed vocabulary, Tolkien's elven languages are more obscure. Comparatively little is known of their vocabularies, which makes writing in them alone challenging. That's clearly not the road to success.

I must say, however, that I do not concur with Wolverène when it comes to the supposed usefulness of artlangs. Auxiliary languages may potentially be very useful, but apart from Esperanto none of them has a sizeable community. Their purpose of serving as a second language for all of humanity is so out of reach that they're really just toys for language geeks. Who needs Kotava or Novial? But anyway, auxlang wikis prove to thrive at least a bit better, so well...

Now finally, should this test wiki be deleted? I think it should, but admittedly it doesn't hurt me. We should get straight what test wikis to delete. I supported the deletion of Old Dutch, Middle Dutch, and Middle English test wikis before, but this was rejected. So why should we be harsher to this one? Steinbach (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I thank you very much for your comment. Although I am not very familiar with the Klingon language, I nevertheless assume a great deal of work went into creating the Klingon Wikipedia, but I do not consider its failure to be a signal that all constructed languages should suffer the same fate. All languages have a lot of differences, and the failure of a language at some point is the additional experience and knowledge gained by all those involved in this project. Perhaps in the future, with the further development of the language and the inclusion of more and more people in its community, this project will succeed, and for this reason I wish success in advance to all those who will try to create a large-scale information project in the Klingon language, and to all those who created it before, and I give them my undying respect.

As for Tolkien's Elvish languages, with my knowledge of that language I assume such an initiative is more than feasible. Sindarin is no worse than many other languages, and thanks to its rules of word formation it can formulate over 30 billion words and express through them the same number of concepts, so I am sure that all worries about its lexicon are superfluous after all. Nevertheless, I thank you all the same for expressing them.

Speaking of auxiliary languages, I can give a few reflections of my own. We human beings are social beings, and we need a constant exchange of information with each other, because without this communication our society would fall apart. But we all live in different cultures and religions, in different time zones and climatic zones, and all this, one way or another, affects our way of thinking, our character, and everything else. For this reason, not all people in the world have the same favorite foods and movies. For the same reason, each person for international communication, being free from birth, chooses his or her own language or languages that are suitable and convenient for that person. Therefore, any language that wants to become a world language will be a world language, but only a certain percentage of the world's population will speak it.

Also, thank you very much for your words of support. For our project, they are now more valuable than ever. Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 13:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Wt/cu

Very small pages, test main page is a copy from cu:главьна страница, there is a Сѥ ѥстъ мъногоѩꙁꙑчьна отврьста єнкѷклопєдїꙗ · ѭжє къжьдо можєтъ иꙁмѣнꙗти ⁙ Википєдїꙗ пьсана [[||Словѣньскъ ѩꙁꙑкъ|словѣньскꙑимь ѩꙁꙑкомь]] начѧта ѥстъ їоунїꙗ 2006 лѣта Дьньсь Википєдїи 4 члѣни сѫтъ text (no difference from wikipedia), some english text in, unactive wiki. 155.137.183.105 17:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, This is the Wiktionary Old church Slavonic LOLI'mfriggin silly (talk) 02:42, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

• Inactivity itself shouldn't be a valid reason for deletion. Some pages aren't that small - Wt/cu/бесада, Wt/cu/бесѣда, Wt/cu/боукꙑ. A little number of English words and copied content could be fixed using a dictionary. --Wolverène (talk) 05:14, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Fixed. Not sure about the accusative form of "Викиаꙁъбоукъвьникъ" - either unchanged or "Викиаꙁъбоукъвьника". --Wolverène (talk) 06:29, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
• KEEP no valid reason to delete was expressed. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 19:22, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

  Due to Wp/orv success, I don't think there are no valid reason to delete this test project. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

  I didn’t say there are no valid reasons, I said that no valid reason were epxreseed. Change my mind. Anyways, I understand that Wp/omv was deleted because it was not written from a neautral point of view. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 21:58, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

• Delete Has only contents that are propagandas rather than seriously contributed dictionary pages. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:20, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
  • May I learn more which pages can be considered as propaganda? Of course since it is written in a historical language now used as liturgical by the Church it may not be potentially 100% neutral in this field... or do you mean governmental propaganda? I looked at the Main Page and did not read anything special. --Wolverène (talk) 08:59, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

    Just see why Wp/orv was deleted, where I provided the link above, as said by an admin at I:AN, for projects listed at Category:Incubator:Test_wikis/code/history, They will eventually be deleted. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:17, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Wp/nys

After tagging a few pages by one specific editor for deletion as written in the wrong language, I started looking further and found that the entire wiki appears to be written in English, apart from some seemingly mindless AWB replacements of common prepositions, conjunctions and other small words. Unless there is content actually written in Nyugar, there is no need to host this on the Incubator. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 17:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I remember there was a discussion about these things some time ago, the meta request might give some insight.User:Aarghdvaark and User:Gnangarra might also want to comment. --MF-W {a, b} 23:50, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

If it was verified as eligible I don’t think it can be deleted. The content is written in English though so idk what should be done. Maybe invite speakers of the language to translate it? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 08:23, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

The language being verified as eligible does not mean all the content it contains should be kept. If it's all English, it's simply no longer the language discussed. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 08:28, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

• Delete Not really written in Noongar, the same reason Wy/no was deleted also applies here. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 06:29, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  Based on below suggestions, I'd change my opinion to move to Incubator Plus. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:20, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

• Archive dont delete I contacted the Language Committee ESEAP region representative in 16th December 21 asking for the nys to be archived. Prior to that I had admin tools on nys and attempted to remove/delete solely in english language pages that had no Noongar input but the pages were restored and I was told by the LC not to delete them. I had also used AWB to make some common word changes to Nyungar. In late 2017 I was approached told nys was good to go live, it'd be discussed in Berlin in April. In April 2018 in Berlin I was told it was good to go but first we had do 1500 translate wiki translation for the skin. Each of these changes had negative impact on the communities development. Forcing me to again rebuild the contributor community. Last 2 years its been near impossible to host the events to rebuild again. I'm more than happy to have admin rights again providing I have the freedom to delete pages that shouldnt be there, and then see the project archived(not editable) keeping the efforts of those people who acted in good faith over the years rather than it being deleted. There has been too many bad faith actions taken over the years, it would have been nice to have had an opportunity to discuss the depth of issues before finding out about this from a third party. It would be nice for the Language committee especially the member "responsible for the region" to make an effort to respond as well. I had a funding request in November to get the support needed to dedicate time to again rebuilding the community, but that got morphed into a monster project by WMF & WMAU beyond the fundings capacity to something I wasnt willing to take on in the current covid restricted climate. Gnangarra (talk) 08:00, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure who told you you can't delete pages that shouldn't be there. Of course that is possible. I also don't know who the language committee's "regional representative" is, as langcom doesn't have such posts. --MF-W {a, b} 13:37, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee#Current User:Janwo is listed as contact for the region, Stephen White was the one who said I wasnt to delete en pages Gnangarra (talk) 14:53, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  I see - that was a misunderstanding then, the table merely lists where members live. Anyway, I don't know why Steven said that, and we can't ask him since he is inactive. However, again, I really see no reason why English pages should not be deleted - this isn't the English Wikipedia, but the Nyungar one, hopefully. -- MF-W {a, b} 03:43, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

  @MF-Warburg: If I had admin rights I'd do a cleanup but there isnt an active community at the moment, I dont have resources to invest in building it at the moment so for now archiving is the ideal option perhaps restrict to admin access so it can be cleaned up Gnangarra (talk) 12:26, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

  User:Gnangarra: you can get admin rights to do a cleanup immediately if you want. If not, it's also ok to let the project be for the moment. We can't restrict access so it would have to remain visible. -- MF-W {a, b} 00:26, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

• Don't delete. I believe all of Wikipedia, specifically including Noongarpedia, should be seen and used as a resource for appropriate communities. That means it should be written in the language of that community. I believe there are something of the order of 300 native Noongar speakers and unfortunately because of the cultural dichotomy these people would not edit Noongarpedia. The language is not dead as people are learning the language, but many of these people do not reach the stage of advanced speakers of a foreign language, let alone fluent speakers, so these people too would not become editors writing in Noongar. There is a page on Noongarpedia which explains the usage of Noongar in the Noongar community. To quote from the page Wp/nys/Using and Editing the Noongarpedia#Modern Noongar dialect groups:

“ There may have been up to 15 dialects of the Noongar language at the time of European settlement. Today it is highly endangered as the 2006 census recorded only 240 speakers, but nidja is an increase from the 1996 census wer karro people are learning the language.[1][2] Noongar words are used as part of the vocabulary of an English dialect with Nyungar admixture, known as Neo-Nyungar, which is spoken by perhaps 8,000 ethnic Noongar.[1] This Noongarpedia is written in English, Neo-Nyungar wer Noongar. It is written to be a reference source for yennar the people of WA, especially the Noongar, wer as a learning resource for the Noongar language. It is critical importance that Noongar and Neo-Noongar are used in schools in Noongar boodjar.[3] The Noongarpedia acknowledges and respects all variants of dialect used across the south west and aims to support schoolchildren by using their language. ”

Many people in the Noongar community mostly use English with some Noongar words. To deny these people a community building resource of their own Wiki on the grounds that they speak the language of the people who took their lands is perverse. Denying the fact that the community actively uses English would lead to Noongarpedia being developed only as an ethnographic and historical resource for listing texts solely written in one or another Noongar dialect. Given that Noongar was purely an oral language when it was dominant this is an irrelevant task and is of no help to disadvantaged language communities seeking to reinstate their language and support their communities.

I myself initially tried to only correct the formatting and English mistakes of posts on the Noongarpedia, as I am not Noongar but an experienced Wikipedia editor, but found I was drawn in to make posts to document both important and seemingly unimportant things as there were few other people contributing consistently. I think this emphasis on language purity has not helped in the development of the Noongarpedia, indeed Gnangarra above states that these language imperatives have previously smashed developing user communities for Noongarpedia. And I too gave up contributing to Noongarpedia because a page I had created was deleted because it was in English, following one of these pure language purges. Aarghdvaark (talk) 10:40, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Your efforts are appreciated. There is no accurate numbers on speakers, but there are 2 million people who speak the language in part, and its taught in schools in Perth. The data of 240 is ABS data that doesnt ask if people speak it or how fluently but rather they ask what is the primary language spoken at home to answer noongar is not a simple box yick but rather navigating through complex menus and then writing it in. After that the ABS doesnt collate the various spellings but rather chooses to view each as separate languages with many of the 15 known spellings getting discarded in the process. For the majority of Nyungar Adults it was a criminal offense to speak the language up until 1992 children in WA education system were frequently punished for doing so. The part of the equation is that being declared endangered creates access to funding for Universities, being declared extinct means that protocols around community consultation are removed. All these issues amplify the need for poor usage statistics. I speak, write, and use nyungar/noongar on a regular basis but I dont meet the ABS requirements to be recorded though I can chose to lie on the census. Gnangarra (talk) 15:08, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

@Aarghdvaark, if the community is generally unable to use its ancestors' language but wishes to create the Noongarpedia in more spread English, it's not necessary to create the project under the Wikimedia Foundation label - just move it to a separate wiki site, it may be in English, Noongar, their mix or whatever. Also if the wiki is written in English, the English Wikipedia fits perfectly to contain the pages on the Noongar culture... but the pages should meet the local policy of course.
Wp/nys is intended to be used only for pages in Noongar. Culturally, the Noongar language is not better or worse than other languages considered moribund. E.g. the Manchu Test Wikipedia is written in Manchu itself, although there are only 20 native speakers and a couple of thousands of second-language speakers, versus ~11 millions of ethnic Manchus. Of course now we can't be sure about the quality of their pages, but they don't write in Chinese which is the language of 99,(9) % Manchus. --Wolverène (talk) 09:27, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Wp/ota

Was deleted following this discussion, later someone re-created the Wp/ota/آنا صحیفه, but only then added "contents" that are machine translated from tr.wikipedia, as requests were rejected for 4 times, I see no hopes there may even have a successful ota.wikipedia launched. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:56, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

One existing page deleted. Further recreations prevented by the abusefilter. --MF-W {a, b} 20:47, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Wp/coc

Please delete these pages. Pure vandalism created by a vandal.--PAVLOV (talk) 06:49, 14 May 2022 (UTC)