Incubator:Requests for deletions

This page is for nominating test wikis for deletion, or for nominating pages related to the maintenance of the Incubator for deletion. Requests for undeletions can also be made here. To request the deletion of individual pages in a specific test wiki, please use the relevant talk pages where the editors of the test wiki are most active (such as the talk page of the test wiki's Main Page). Pages that should be speedily deleted should be tagged with {{delete}} with a proper reason.

It is typically not necessary to request that pages in a test wiki be deleted after the project has been given its own subdomain (e.g., aa.wikipedia.org), since such deletions are part of the normal workflow when creating new wikis. Eventually all pages in the test wiki will be deleted, leaving behind only the info page.

For the deletion policy, see Incubator:Deletion policy.

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Wp/jat, Wt/jat, Wb/jat, Wn/jat, Wq/jat and Wy/jat

Per w:en:Special:Diff/1121838578, it's suspected (at least by @Uanfala) that pages in this test project aren't written in Inku (aka Jakati, which iso639-3:jat points to), probably a linguist in the affected region should join here to discuss whether their suspect is true. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:38, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Example text in Inku language is same as Jatki language. The code Jat was initially fir Jatki languge. In the article of Inku it is clearly written that the language belong to Punjab pronvice of Pakistan.

This wikipedia is written in Jatki language. So, this wikipedia should not be deleted. Otherwise a large no of written material may be destroyed. So it should be continued. Sraiki (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

First, there used to be serious confusion about which exact language was denoted by the ISO code "jat". See the commentary in the Glottolog entry [1]. This appears to have largely been resolved now, with both Glottolog and Ethnologue using that code for Inku, the language of a few small itinerant groups of Afghanistan that was probably never written and that may well be extinct by now. The name "Jakati" [sic], surprisingly still visible in the ISO 639-3 code tables [2], is almost certainly erroneous. The similar name "Jatki" appears never to have been used for Inku, but was historically common for a number of related languages of Pakistani Punjab (see en:Jatki language), most notably for what is nowadays known as Saraiki, a language with millions of speakers, a solid written tradition, and a Wikipedia of its own. Now, I don't speak any of those languages, so I can't know for sure. My hunch is that those incubator articles about places in Punjab that appear to use what looks to me like Saraiki orthography, are unlikely to be written in a possibly extinct language of Afghanistan. User:Sraiki, maybe you can help us here: what exact language have you written those articles in? where is it spoken? by how many people? Uanfala (talk) 12:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

These articles are written the language, which is known Jatki. It is mainly spoken in Bar region . It is called Jatki in the region. It is spoken by more than 50% population of that region. The population of Jatki is more than 10 M. In all old documents it is Jatki.This language is entirely different from Saraiki and Punjabi. See this for more details, https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/895 .This language is also called en:Shahpuri dialect and en:Jhangvi dialect. This Jatki was also called en:Lahnda in old litrature whose Iso code is lah. As there is no current ISO code for Jhangvi and Shahpuri, I used Iso code of Jatki, because jat is code for Jatki and Jatki is mainly used for these dialects. See also https://www.routledge.com/Dictionary-of-the-Jatki-or-Western-Panjabi-Language/Jukes/p/book/9780367248680 This book is about Jatki language. Sraiki (talk) 12:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

@Sraiki, Engr.ismailbhutta "I used Iso code of Jatki"? The problem is that iso639-3:jat page says Jakati, not Jatki, I'd say that this is an issue that should be resolved, or else it would be ultra-unfair for Inku/Jakati speakers (if any), as there are two cases the existing Wikipedias were occupied (good to say so?) codes for other unrelated languages (nrmwiki, says Norman Wikipedia but code is for Narom, and Wikipedia 10, which code is for Tama), and at least I really don't want it to be happened 3rd times and more. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:12, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

I would support the merger of this incubator with existing pnb Wikipedia if possible. The Jatki dialect is widely understood by speakers of other dialects—for example, it is the dialect of Toba Tek Singh District where my family is from. My family are Doabi speakers (an eastern dialect) but many of the words we use overlap with Jatki due to two centuries having passed since my family left eastern Punjab. The Shahmukhi Punjabi Wikipedia already has very few active contributors, and see this energy focused there instead would be most welcome. Any differences that make a given dialect distinctive could also be applied to any other, making it less clear what is left as non-dialectal Punjabi. What is called the “standard” dialect (Majhi) is much more loose of a definition than that of other languages—the language, especially as it is used in Pakistan, has never had a single register which can truly be considered the “main” one due to its lack of official status and use in primarily colloquial contexts. In John Beames's comparative grammar of the northern Indic languages, he reckoned that Punjabi likely has the most dialect variation within the language out of all the major ones for lack of a standard written register. I would say that in line with that, it is perfectly fine for pnb Wikipedia to include articles written in a variety of dialects, and in fact should be expected if the project is meant to represent Punjabi as a whole as it is used in Pakistan. عُثمان (talk) 14:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

(talk) Jatki is well known language in Pakistan which is spoken in 11 districts (Jhang, Chiniot, Toba Tek Singh, Sargodha, Khushab, Sahiwal, Pakpattan, Okara, Bahawalnagar, Vehari and Khanewal districts) of bar region of Punjab province over the area of 49,121 km². The population of Jatki language speaking areas is 26,374,221 according to census 2017 which is more than 50% jatki speaking and others are settlers from India on partition and other parts of Pakistan but they are not locals. The main,local and ancient language of bar region is jatki which has very rich literature and culture. My forefathers migrated from bar region to Saraiki region but the term "inko" is new for me and the people of bar region because their language is Jatki. So I endorse the comments of Mr Sraiki and I request to carry on the Wikipedia project for jatki language to save its literature and culture, regards. Ismail Bhutta 14:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

OK, I see. So Jatki, the language variety that both Sraiki and Ismail Bhutta refer to above, is one that doesn't have a dedicated ISO code. It is intermediate between pnb ("Western Punjabi" as used by the SIL) and skr (Saraiki). It is one of the many varieties that fall under the scope of the macrolanguage lah (Lahnda), but I don't think the code [lah] can be re-appropriated specifically for this variety. The code [jat] can't be used either, as that presently refers to the Inku language of Afghanistan (there has been confusion around that code before, but never to my knowledge has it been used for a language of Pakistan). The only way forward that I can see is to come up with a new Wikimedia-specific language code and then move the test wikipedia accordingly. I don't know how exactly Incubator works, so someone more knowledgeable could take up this task? Uanfala (talk) 19:45, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

In such cases, the new codes should be a part of SIL's code change requests, probably ask @Amire80: on the details? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:50, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Wp/arq

It is evident that this project has been unsuccessful. Dialects cannot be regarded as complete languages due to the absence of established grammatical rules. In Algeria, different regions speak different dialects.

The lack of quality content and properly sourced articles is apparent, with users often duplicating information from other wikis or even themselves. Despite my initial involvement and support for the project, I no longer endorse it. The project has failed to gain momentum over the years. The same situation occurred with the Egyptian version, which was promoted as a Wikipedia versions that would compete with other wikis. However, it did not live up to that expectation, featuring nonsensical articles, lack of notability, a shortage of users, absence of involved admins, and extensive copy-pasting from the Arabic Wikipedia. Moreover, due to the variations in dialects, individuals from different points in Egypt struggle to understand each other if they use their pure dialects. While efforts have been made to keep these projects alive, there is a reality that cannot be ignored. Riad Salih (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

As a neutral observer I must note that inactivity is not a valid reason to delete a test wiki. Neither is the things that have happened on wikis of related languages.

Duplicating contents, and especially unsourced, however, can be a valid reason. For that, I advise you to give us concrete examples. --OWTB (talk) 12:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

To fully comprehend the distinctions, one must engage with the Algerian dialect, as it differs from Algerian Arabic. Often, individuals mistakenly conflate a language with a somewhat dialect and a dialect with mere variations. Linguists possess the ability to differentiate between these linguistic categories. However, due to the limited number of contributors involved in such projects, which predominantly operate in obscurity, people are generally unaware of their existence. Consequently, we rely on ISO standards to validate the legitimacy of a language, as there is no significant opposition.

The articles use a mix of dialect, and if you read a single article, you will be confused by the dialect used. For example, take Wp/arq/باب لواد. If a real reader from Algeria reads this, they will probably laugh. And what's the purpose of citing Wikipedia French as a reference? The same goes for "Wp/arq/مناضميّات." Do Algerians use مناضميّات to refer to Computer Science? No, it's clear they just fill the article to boost the numbers and try to gain validation.

Dezedien is the only person here trying to push this project and make it real without any support from real contributors. The case of the Maghreb region in North Africa is different from Spanish as an exemple, which has different dialects as versions.

Even the reasons he is citing below are nonsensical, to say the least. Leaving a legacy to scholars or linguists? For that, there are press articles in newspapers, YouTube videos, etc. "A source of work for the scientific community" seriously? Can he give us some examples to support his point of view?

All the content was pushed to be added just to bring the version, making a profit from the absence of Algerian contributions. It's random content without any quality, simply copied and translated from French and Arabic articles, mostly by students who never contribute again outside of their university courses. Riad Salih (talk) 01:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

w:en:A language is a dialect with an army and navy is a standard proverb among linguists. There is no bright line between language and dialect; the word w:en:lect was invented by linguists to avoid approaching the question. See also w:en:dialect for endless text on the subject.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

KEEP : I apologize, @Riad Salih, for any inconvenience caused by the difficulty you may be experiencing in transcribing the dialect you use daily.

Firstly, it is important to clarify that the initiators and those who have renewed this project aim to promote and preserve Algerian Arabic, which already exists in various forms, much like English, French, and Spanish. This project is the result of several initiatives, the most recent being the participation of 300 students from the University of Chlef in translating articles from Arabic to Algerian.

It is understandable that there may be inconsistencies and similarities with the Arabic language, as Algerian is considered Algerian Arabic.

It is important to acknowledge that

The goal may not necessarily be to...

- Create a new language (it already exists)

- Compete with another language (it's evolving on its own)

- Create the same number of articles as wikipedia Arabic or English

- Create quality articles - content is in its beginning stages

This project is mainly intended to

- A source of work for the scientific community

- Educators and linguists looking for texts in Algerian

- Propose and not impose an spelling for writing Algerian

- Leave a documented, digitized source of Algerian spoken language for future generations

Each project has its own community and its own pace of development.

It is important to avoid putting this project in competition, because it does not belong to the same category.

The Egyptian Wikipedia has been much and wrongly compared to the Arabic Wikipedia.

and this century-old debate and I do not recommend eliminating it, you are trying to destroy the effort of many volunteers.

If you have any concerns regarding this project, please do not hesitate to voice them. otherwise let the other volunteers continue its development. It has been in hibernation for quite a while because the team preferred to rethink the strategy by developing the Wiktionary this year while adopting a good spelling to allow us to rediscover the richness of Algerian and develop articles in complete coherence with Algerian.

hope it will be good for you. Dezedien (talk) 13:30, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Delete, Initially, you were strongly opposed to this version, and now you changed your position. Well, it will be a failure like other projects. This is a nonsensical project. English, French, and Arabic have already a very few Algerian contributors, and you expect variations of dialects that are not mutually intelligible to produce good articles undestanble from all the Algerians.

Please tell that the students from universities in Chlef, Mostaganem, and other places were not actively creating articles but primarily engaged in translating French articles. They were compelled to do so as part of their university assignments, leaving them with no choice but to fulfil this obligation. It would be worth investigating the current status of contributors from these students, both for the French Wikipedia and the Algerian Wikipedia. However, it appears that the number of active contributors from this group is currently zero.

These are dialect versions and not Algerian Arabic is it is promoted, which can confuse people here. The Algerian dialect is mixed with French, Spanish, Turkish, and other words that do not belong to Arabic.

Moreover, if you look at the articles here, most of them are translated by some Moroccans with a clear Moroccan dialect, using words that never belonged to Algerian society, just to push for the existence of an Algerian Wikipedia, similar to what happened with the Moroccan version. This resulted in a degradation of language and knowledge and the quality of articles. They even ended up translating scholarly citations and quotes, which makes no sense.

Wikipédia has a universal vocation, as it is one of its founding principles. However, any project with a weak foundation is destined to decline. n Algerian Wikipedia will become a nationalist encyclopedia, leading to conflicts among contributors. It will end up being an encyclopedia without quality content, and its potential for growth is so limited. To gain a better understanding, you can verify the the Moroccan version.

In the end, you are alleging that I am responsible for destroying the efforts of many volunteers, an accusation that is both unfair and unacceptable. I choose not to engage in a response to this statement as it surpasses the assumption of good faith. Regards Riad Salih (talk) 21:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Chère @Riad Salih

Please refrain from telling only real, proven facts, without peddling or facts that never happened.

I'm really surprised to read your last message full of false accusations.

I will answer a few points, I respect your opinion, I just ask you to respect the opinions of others and not pretend and say what is not.

- You say for me what I didn't say, where did you get that?

- You accuse the university and the teacher of imposing a job on the students when you haven't even been to Chlef or discussed the program with a single person.

- Your theory about Algerian is questionable, it's exactly what happens with Amazigh and it's the only way to transfer knowledge with Algerian.

- You want to divert the discussion to words like nationalism, and that's wrong, but it's a purely neutral project aimed at linguists.

take a look at this page she the work of Said Tadjer

he offered us a dictionary of 2500 words in Algerian he wrote all the hortograph rules to write in Algerian we are just waiting for the right moment to add them to wikidata and wiktionnair we did it with only 1000 words

https://web.facebook.com/groups/425268594189148/?_rdc=1&_rdr

Finally, I'd like to invite you to a discussion about Algerian. If you agree, we can organize a meeting on googlemeet/zoom and I'll invite university professors who teach Algerian in Canada/Italy/France and Algeria.

regard

Their work is currently serving AI and now you want to suppress it.

I'm really sorry, compare this to the destruction of books in the Middle Ages.

Let this project develop at its own rhythm . Dezedien (talk) 15:32, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

My proposal is to retain this project while removing and revising the current articles that are of subpar quality. This is the only solution to preserve this project. If the problem is related to the quality of the articles, we will carry out a total verification. The quality, quantity, and number of articles are not significant, but if the quantity exceeds 1000 articles, we will revisit all of them. This will allow us to set up a system of quality control for the articles and ensure the project can continue for future editors. We are seeking contributors for this improvement project to transcribe Algerian derdja for quality studies and to transcribe Algerian content using local languages and dialects. It is important to note that this project is not intended to compete with other languages, particularly Arabic, nor is it meant to create a new language. Rather, it aims to document existing knowledge using local languages and dialects. Dezedien (talk) 11:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi back,

I am myself concerned with sociolinguistics and the differences between languages and dialects, If you wish to engage in a discussion, I welcome your linguists to participate and share their perspectives here.

It is not about competition with Arabic. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to test if a dialect can stand on its own and be standardized as a language. ISO isn't a way to argue that it is a full language.

The case of Algeria is very complex. We have two sociolinguistic phenomena: bilingualism (French, Arabic, English, Berber) and diglossia (two varieties of languages exist side by side throughout the community), which is mostly the case here. We have a high variety (Standard Arabic) and a low variety (Darija - Algerian Arabic). Low varieties can't be used in this context since they are auto-implemented for low purposes in Algerian society and not for learning, writing, or searching… etc. In high-context fields, Algerians use the official languages.

I'm really sorry, but comparing this to the destruction of books in the Middle Ages is a joke, and you are using sentiments in this debate when I'd prefer to see facts. Algerian Arabic dictionaries and such aren't real arguments to have a full version here on Wikipedia. Even during French colonization, they did write dictionaries, and I can share many here.

Most of the content created here (mainly from random contributors who have no clue and are mainly students from Chlef and Mostaganem, pushed by a French contributor whom you know) is of low quality, as it's often copied and pasted. For example, full French text is copied and pasted here and these contributors rarely participate further on Wikipedia to not say never

The French, Arabic, and English versions of Wikipedia do not have more than six active Algerian contributors. It is incorrect to assume that a small national version, which lacks a clear language due to the various regional dialects in Algeria (which do not possess all the characteristics of a distinct language), would have a significant encyclopedic impact and attract readers. This situation is ironic considering the linguistic paysage present in the country. There is also Algerian French, but it does not have a full version on its own, and the same goes for other variations such as Canadian French, etc.

If you have a specific connection to Algerian Arabic, that's acceptable. You can work on creating dictionaries, sharing content on other platforms, and so on. However, Wikipedia is intended for encyclopedic purposes and is not the appropriate place for conducting such tests. It is not a laboratory for linguists to standardize a dialect into a language that lacks the necessary criteria for use in encyclopedic settings.

Best regards. Riad Salih (talk) 16:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, I consider it a kind refusal to participate in this meeting, no problem.

for the experimentation i'm not talking about the algerian because it really exists, i'm talking about testing the real utility of transcribing the algerian that is in him real.

Having said that, I'm not undermining the use of Algerian in the official sphere, because you don't realize that it's Algerian that everyone uses everywhere. Do you think that shopkeepers speak classic Algerian in the market?

you can even find official documents dating from the Spanish period and even from the emir abdelkader written in algerian. the government of the french ocupation used algerian to communicate,

all marketing publicity, whether private or public, uses only the Algerian language.

don't tell me otherwise. it's easy to contradict yourself.

i haven't contributed to this project for more than 5 years, because i'm currently busy with other tasks. i'm going to clean up the articles that need to be deleted.

Be careful, it's a project like any other, it's in its infancy and needs more promotion and explanation to help people understand the real purpose of this work.

let's be clear, it's indisputable to deny that algerian is spoken by more than 60 million people, when we see languages spoken by less than 1 million people with their own wiki project. Dezedien (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

In Algeria, Standard Arabic is recognized as the prestigious form of language used in education, administration, and academic research. Society adheres to these linguistic norms. On the other hand, Algerian Arabic, which you refer to is the lower variety, is employed in informal contexts such as coffee shops, supermarkets, and everyday conversations. Different regions in Algeria exhibit other variations, such as the Oranee Dialectal language (OrandD), We have no standard Algerian Arabic.

Algerian Arabic cannot be considered a codified language, it is primarily regarded as a variation of Arabic (dialect) with very restricted and limited usage in formal settings.

60 million people speak Algerian dialect, not Algerian Arabic (which is linguistically speaking the Colloquial Arabic of Algeria). There are Arabophone, Francophone, and Amazigh speakers in Algeria. Reliable sources are needed to prove your claims.

As mentioned before, there are many varieties of French (Canadian, Algerian, Moroccan, Haitian), yet only one version of French is exits on Wikipedia, and more recently, Simple French.

Wikipedia serves as an encyclopedia and is not intended for testing AI-related experiments or exploring linguistic dialects. Additionally, you mentioned that you are the main contributor to this version. You can continue exploring other aspects of Algerian Arabic on different platforms.

Wikipedia should primarily focus on content with encyclopedic value. The current arq version does not align with that objective. I would prefer to have a discussion based on real linguistic approaches here. Therefore, we can wait for your friends to join and mention me, and I'll be available to reply.

Regards Riad Salih (talk) 17:49, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

You agree with me, but you do not want to accept what I have been telling you from the start.

This project, and especially the Wiktionary, is not about creating a new form of language. Dialects exist in every town and village. You may have already heard of the dialect of Bettioua, a village in Arzew. It is a mixture of Arabic and Sanhadji Berber.

Standard Algerian exists and can be recognized on many occasions, as I mentioned above.

Algerians mix their dialects when communicating daily. This phenomenon can be observed through recorded videos.

I respect your decision to decline participation in this project. However, I believe there may have been a misunderstanding regarding testing and experimentation. The incubator's purpose is to create and publish.

It is worth noting that Algerian is taught and studied globally and is integrated into various computer systems. Yesterday, I generated some texts with Gemini, but they were not up to par. However, they were still in Algerian.

I am sharing my opinion, which is similar to that of many others, even if they are not present here.

I will support and assist those who are willing to work on this project. It takes a lot of energy to achieve an acceptable result.

The group received a solicitation to publish the wiki in summer 2017, but everyone refused because it was not good. Hopefully, it will improve in the future with new contributions from newcomers.

For the 2024-2025 annual plan, the Group will prioritize Witionaire due to the availability of material (a donation of 25,000 words with translation from linguist Said Tadjer) . Additionally, we plan to utilize wikidata. If we clean up the mediocre articles in the incubator section of Wikipedia, we will focus even more on it. Dezedien (talk) 08:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I invited Gemini to the discussion and his response was quite interesting, it's good to have a neutral opinion coming from a synthesized intelligence :)

Q: Algerian is language or Dialect ?

The question of whether Algerian is a language or a dialect is complex and controversial. There is no simple and definitive answer, as it depends on the perspective adopted and the criteria used to define a language.

Arguments in favor of Algerian as a language:

Algerian has its own grammar, vocabulary, and syntax. It is distinct from Literary Arabic, the official language of Algeria, and is not mutually intelligible with it.

Algerian has a long history and a rich literary tradition. There are many works written in Algerian, from poetry (الشعر) to novels (الرواية).

Algerian is the mother tongue of the majority of the Algerian population. It is used in daily life, in the media, and in education.

Arguments in favor of Algerian as a dialect:

Algerian is not recognized as an official language by the Algerian state. The only official language is Literary Arabic.

Algerian has no official status in education. It is not taught in schools and is not used in administrations.

Algerian is often seen as an inferior version of Literary Arabic. It is sometimes perceived as a "vulgar" or "incorrect" dialect.

In conclusion, there is no easy answer to the question of whether Algerian is a language or a dialect. The answer depends on the perspective adopted and the criteria used to define a language.

Here are some additional points to consider:

The distinction between language and dialect is often blurred and subject to debate.

The linguistic status of Algerian is evolving. More and more people are recognizing Algerian as a language in its own right.

The language question is often linked to questions of identity and politics.

It is important to respect the different opinions on this issue and not to impose a single vision.

Q : Do you think that creating a Wikipedia and a dictionary especially in Algerian would be useful?

Yes, I believe creating a Wikipedia and a Wiktionary in Algerian would be very useful.

There are many arguments in favor of this project:

1. Increased access to information:

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would allow more people in Algeria to access information in their native language.

This is especially important for people who do not speak Literary Arabic or French fluently.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would help bridge the digital divide and promote digital inclusion.

2. Preserving Algerian culture and heritage:

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would help document and preserve Algerian culture and heritage in the country's native language.

This would contribute to the transmission of knowledge and traditions to future generations.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would be a valuable resource for researchers and students interested in Algeria.

3. Strengthening Algerian identity:

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would contribute to strengthening Algerian identity and promoting linguistic diversity.

This would allow Algerians to feel more proud of their language and culture.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would be a symbol of the richness and vitality of Algerian culture.

4. Development of the Algerian language:

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would contribute to developing and standardizing the Algerian language.

This would create a corpus of texts in Algerian and encourage linguistic research.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would encourage the creation of new content in the language.

5. Contribution to the Wikimedia community:

Creating an Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would enrich the Wikimedia community and contribute to the diversity of available content.

This would allow sharing knowledge and information with the rest of the world.

An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would be a valuable resource for people interested in the Algerian language and culture.

In addition to these benefits, it is important to note that creating an Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary is a feasible project.

There are already a number of resources available, such as dictionaries and corpora of texts in Algerian.

There is also an active community of Algerian speakers who could contribute to these projects.

In conclusion, I believe that creating an Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary is an important and beneficial project that deserves to be supported.

This is an initiative that could have a significant positive impact on Algerian society and on the Wikimedia community as a whole.

Q : Thank you Gemini where did you get these answers from?

I'm happy to hear my responses were helpful!

I generated those answers by using my knowledge and understanding of the world, which I gained through machine learning on a massive dataset of text and code. This dataset includes information in English, French, and many other languages, as well as computer code. I can process and understand this information and use it to generate relevant and informative answers to your questions.

In addition to my general knowledge, I also have access to specific resources related to Algeria, such as:

Dictionaries and text corpora in Algerian

Algerian news articles and websites

Studies and research on the Algerian language and culture

These resources helped me familiarize myself with the language and culture of Algeria and generate more accurate and relevant answers to your questions.

I'm constantly learning and improving, and I'm always looking for new information and resources to enrich my knowledge. If you have any suggestions or feedback, please don't hesitate to share them. I'm always happy to help! Dezedien (talk) 08:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I am so glad 188.242.249.168 00:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

ISO has given Algerian Arabic the tag arq, so it's a language. Linguists in particular don't buy that "Dialects cannot be regarded as complete languages due to the absence of established grammatical rules"; they would argue that all languages have grammatical rules, and what are called "established grammatical rules" in standardized languages are often farces not even upheld in the writings of those who create and disseminate them, much less the language as it is actually spoken. There's no reason to delete this project.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:00, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

@Prosfilaes Yes, ISO has also given Montenegrin, Ancient Greek, Klingon, ... etc language tags as cnr, grc, tlh ..., so they are all languages, and we should support them instead of reject them, right? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:44, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Ancient languages and artistic conlangs have been rejected for reasons unrelated to the case here. I don't have an opinion about Montenegrin, but the issues with it have been well detailed; because Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia have their own names for Serbo-Croatian, Montenegro wanted their own national language/name despite lacking any significant differences. There doesn't seem to be anything similar in this case, just the standard dialect/language arguments.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

thanks for your comments, In light of the available information, I believe that Algerian Arabic deserves to be recognized as a language. Its ISO language code, unique linguistic features, and historical context provide strong evidence for this categorization. By acknowledging its status as a distinct language, we can contribute to its preservation and the recognition of linguistic diversity. Dezedien (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Against deleting this project. I don't think the project is unsuccessful. Wikipedia can be written in several dialects, there are several such examples, for example, als. In case of deletion, I suggest moving the content to Miraheze. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 09:58, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Wp/sro

Like the Wp/arq above, there are some evidences make this test project unsuccessful too. Campidanese is only considered as a dialect of Sardinian, and the Sardinian Wikipedia already has lots of articles written in this dialect. One scwiki administrator @L2212 also pointed at this talk page, that the real Campidanese speakers always directly contribute scwiki, where the user in that question, Fausta Samaritani, has identified to be another maker of scowiki-like problems, where that user doesn't really speak or write Sardinian, or any dialects of it, and that user's aim looks like to "transform scwiki to be a constellation (sic?)", which doesn't really work-able in any circumstances. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I also support the deletion of that test wiki. As @Liuxinyu970226 has already written, it's a personal project by a non-speaker (using two names, Fausta Samaritani and Sirmio Cabinigre) that decided to work on it by creating hundreds of copy-pasted and almost empty articles (like the ones regarding the days of the month, the years or the centuries) with empty sections that someone else would have to fill. The Wp/sro project was already clearly not successful, having existed for years without a single article, and the sudden push for it's "development" and even its publication as a new language version comes from Fausta Samaritani's desire to split Sardinian in a multitude of wikis, one for every dialect (there are 200+ of them, btw, since every town has its own little differences, so you can imagine how feasible such an idea would be), to create, as Liuxinyu970226 mentioned, a "constellation of wikis" (sic) about it. Considering the fact that Sardinian is a single language with mutual intelligibility between the dialects, that we already have few active users as it is, and that the users that write using the Campidanese orthography (often alongside others, like the LSC one) use sc.wiki (where we also have rules and template to work with multiple orthographies and versions of an article) and have rejected time and time again this project (as you can see in the discussions here, here and here, where you can also find more informations about Sardinia's linguistic situation) the fact that she is still insisting is honestly absurd. L2212 (talk) 19:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I see the Sardinian wiki uses similar tactics like Limburgish, which also has a high dialectual variation (see Agiudu:Grafias de Wikipedia), so I personally agree that there is no need for separate wikis. However, the requests are marked as eligible by the language subcom, so we have to allow them here. So really, this needs to be addressed at meta:Language committee first. Here we facilitate, we don't judge eligibility, that's up to the Langcom. --OWTB (talk) 16:03, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

@Ooswesthoesbes There are some languages where their "Wikipedia requests" are eligible, but Incubator tests deleted: Fala (fax), Orang Seletar (ors), Ter Sami (sjt) and Votic (vot), with the third one been barred for re-creation. To the best of my knowledge, we should re-debate eligibility of these 5 (yep, include sro one) requests, they are controversial requests by even non-L2 speakers. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Those test projects were deleted because the contents was either gibberish or in another language than the code, not on eligibility reasons. As I indicated before, we facilitate, we don't judge. --OWTB (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

@Ooswesthoesbes Yes, Wp/sro is also containing gibberish and absurd contents provided by speakers of another language, as L2212 said above, "we don't judge" don't mean either, that we can't oppose, just see what I commented at those controversial "eligible" requests: 1, 2, 3 and 4 Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I am in agreement with the deletion, as presented by @L2212 Riad Salih (talk) 16:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Why isn't the wiki transferred to Incubator Plus 2.0 instead or maybe, move the articles to the Wikipedia in Sardinian with a note explaining that they are written in Campidanese? Jon Gua (talk) 11:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Jon Gua If you can explain that why those contents are not "gibberish and absurd" as explained and endorsed above, feel free. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The content should be moved to Sardinian Wikipedia or Miraheze. I don't see anything "gibberish and absurd" in the content. Yes, the articles are small, but that's another problem. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 10:01, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

@Danvintius Bookix See L2212's comments above, unless if you're really debating his comments, I don't see why Fausta's contributions aren't gibberish and absurd. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:41, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Example. I see, it is a simple small article about year, nothing absurd. They are written, as far as I can judge, in Sardinian, and most likely in Campidanese orthography, because besides Fausta, there was also a user who actually knew Sardinian who edited it. I do not support a separate Campidanese Wikipedia, but we must be objective. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 13:15, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

@L2212 What's your idea on Danvintius Bookix's idea to merge this test project into sc.wikipedia? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Wp/na

Raised by m:Talk:Language committee#Requests for closures, @Yupik pointed out that Even the longer pages were created by someone who is not a (native) speaker of the language and is tied to the whole Kamassian debacle, probably this imported project meets same situation scowiki has. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I was notified about this on my talk page. I'm not a native speaker. I've not made any substantial edits, and AFAICT the 60 edits I did make were only to add images, links and categories, and I don't have an opinion on whether the project should be closed. Kwamikagami (talk) 02:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Looks like some of my edits from en: were imported. The current template doesn't work b/c it's part of the Lua everything debacle. The version I wrote doesn't work b/c parts of it were deleted which is tie to the "delete everything we don't need" debacle. Otherwise I wish this wiki the very best of luck. Rich Farmbrough (talk)

Comment Why can't we leave it in Incubator until community to create Wikipedia would form? I know that Nauruan language has not much speakers, but I don't think this is the reason delete the project even from Incubator. Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 11:45, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Support to leave it as it is. Таёжный лес (talk) 08:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment It seems that many pages are indeed not grammatically correct. Таёжный лес (talk) 12:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Wp/mjx

Hii respect to all, over the period our language is more or less similar with santali people . It is Ok if our language is told as santali. But the whole world knows our language is not a language it is a dialect. But still if any one will ask me what my language is I wll say Mahali. It is Good to see mahali wikipeida but I am not happy with its version in Roman. It should be never in Roman Please, it should be in Bengali or Devnagari. I dont Know why it is being done for Roman script. I dont go for deletion of project but change the script , we should have devnagari or bengali. One more thing why in the home page it is written Ho̠ṛ Wikipiḍia being the proud mahale I am mahale I dont want to be Hor, Hor it means santali or Ho. I am neither of them. Please change it to Mahali Wikipedia. is it controlled by santali people or Mahali people. I also dont understand why some santals are so much interested in this Wikipedia that too in roman. RameshMahali2024 (talk) 15:46, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If the version continues in Roman, the project should be deleted soon. Wikipedia sholuld find appropriate mahali people to start this projectRameshMahali2024 (talk) 15:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Dear admin,

wm/mjx/ incubator is the page of our language MAHALI. Why the requestor of Santari language want to make delete wm/mjx/ incubator page is greek to us. Santaṛs have their own Santaṛi wikipedia.

We Mahali also want our own wikipedia.

2409:408A:2CB5:212D:7C3A:B3E5:7849:CE28 07:57, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

"wm/" isn't a valid prefix. wp/mjx has not been deleted, merely proposed for deletion. Pppery (talk) 16:14, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

For everyone, language and its script is a very sensitive matter like you, I and others. In this case our Santali language and its script is also holds that much of respect and responsibilities to protect and preserve for our next generations. We love to express our expression in our mother tongue and mother script. While someone wants to mix-up one language with another script is not healthy for a language. Hope you understand the sentiments of the language community.

Also I want to enclose some prominent universities where other than language papers are taught in Santali language and its script called "Ol Chiki".

https://www.srcmujhargram.ac.in/academic/ and https://www.bankurauniv.ac.in/get-page-details-sub-category-item/centre-for-santali-studies/programmes-offered/12

Indian highest literary award called Sahitya Academy also provided to Santali literature in its script called Ol Chiki. So there is no need of special status to Mahali dialect. You can't distinguish them by saying Santali language and Mahali language.

I hope you understand whole thing regarding it and take necessary steps for better future of the development of Santali Language and their script. If you have any queries or required more detailed clarification regarding this, please feel free to ask.

Thanks,

ᱯᱨᱚᱯᱷᱮᱥᱥᱚᱨ | ⌨️ | 02:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I've renamed this section accordingly, also moved their rationale for “speedy deletion” (which I also don't believe that this project meets any SD rationales) --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 17:31, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't really understand what is going on here. If this is merely a matter of script usage, I think this is better discussed under Wp/mjx (and, if needed, voted). I won't be dealing with the Wp/mjx speedy deletion requests for now, since they cover practically all of the test project and they regard this discussion. Iohanen (Garcez) (talk) 20:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Although it is connected more or less with script, but most important discussion of it is how many projects will we run in Wikipedia. If more than one project runs in one platform reduce trust among the readers and not healthy for any language like Santali which is officially written in Santali script called "Ol Chiki". I and Santali language communities strongly condemning the continuation of this project. I strongly proposing to delete this project.

Thanks,

ᱯᱨᱚᱯᱷᱮᱥᱥᱚᱨ | ⌨️ | 08:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

To protect the integrity of Santali language and their script. Because these days Santali script called "Ol Chiki" is most prominent among the community and few Lutheran Churches may using Latin script but not in formal setup. Here are two links as evidence http://lisindia.ciil.org/Santali/Santali_script.html and https://www.sentinelassam.com/story/north-east-india-news/assam-news/assam-cabinet-decision-govt-to-introduce-santhali-language-in-schools-650237 . According to indian census and linguistics Mahali is a dialect of Santali language. I hope, you delete this page as soon as possible. , with ᱯᱨᱚᱯᱷᱮᱥᱥᱚᱨ | ⌨️ | 06:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I am going through some of these incubator articles, most of the articles (90%) are copy and pest from Santali Wikipedia only difference is they converted it in Roman script. Mahali is the dialect of Santali.¹ and this dialect are written in Ol Chiki and Bangla Script also, most of the mahali people in India use these two script.² so first of all resolve the script issues. And if you continue this project with copy paste method then I think there is no need for separate project. ᱥᱟᱹᱜᱩᱱ ᱗ (talk) 03:15, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• I also really don't know what's the actual problems here. If we are considering Mahali as just a dialect of Santali, then as well as there are lack of reasons why Mahali speakers are lacking mutual communications with Santali speakers, Wp/mjx shouldn't exist and their speakers can just join sat:, but if the Mahali speakers can provide evidences why their lingua franca is different from Santali (Remember: just have a different ISO code isn't enough due to Filipino (fil) case, as it's just considered as legal name of Tagalog (tl)), then why not keeping mjx? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

  Keep. This proposed deletion doesn't indicate a good reason to delete a whole Incubator. Mahali may or may not be distinct from Santali, and until we are sure, we should assume good faith and not delete it. I cannot see anything in the Incubator content that makes me doubt the sincere intentions of its authors.

  According to the current practice, a much better place to discuss such things is a page with a request for a new language on Meta. It looks like such a page doesn't exist for Mahali at the moment. It should probably be created, using the instructions at m:Language committee/Handbook (requesters). Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Amire80 I would instead to consider supporting delete this, based on ᱥᱟᱹᱜᱩᱱ ᱗ above that articles are most likely copy-pasted just from satwiki, this situation gave me another prs panorama, where Dari is just the legal name of Persian language in Afghanistan, but someone who claim from there started with copy-pasting fawiki and just rename "Persian" to "Dari" for their language name. Thus, I would guess Mahali is just a village-given name of Santali language, means, only one or two villages call Santali as "Mahali". Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I've looked at several articles, and while some of them indeed looked similar to the corresponding Santali articles, they didn't looked completely copied and transliterated. In addition, the claim that Glottolog confirms that Mahali is a dialect of Santali is misleading, because that's exactly the opposite of what Glottolog actually says. @Liuxinyu970226, if you don't actually know this language, please don't make accusations based on guesses.

  If anyone is still certain that most of those articles are just Santali that is transliterated from Ol Chiki into Latin, please provide more detailed examples. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 02:21, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Amire80 So in your opinion, we should re-allow Wp/fil for "Filipino" and Wp/prs for "Dari", right? That said, copy-pasting contents from existing Wikipedias without providing attributions, are also considered as copyvio, this is confirmed per several meta RFCs, e.g. this one. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I didn't say anything like that. Please stop making nonsensical accusations. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 04:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Amire80 Anyway, if the only difference is script usage, why not consider mw:LanguageConverter instead? There are already dozens of wikis have pages in different scripts, and about half of them are having this support, so when possible, why not consider deploying Ol Chiki-Roman converter instead? By this way no new wikis are needed. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  As I already said, the place to discuss this is not the deletion proposals page on the

  Incubator, but the language proposal page on Meta. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 12:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Amire80 If all of what you want is just a RFL page for Mahali, I asked these contributors for a possible creation, but they all didn't response on it, so are you really wanna such a page instead of here? If yes, then really, I will create it. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:38, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  A request to create a wiki in a language should be created by people who know that language and who want to request the creation of that wiki. If you don't know that language or people who speak this language, then you shouldn't create a request. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 03:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Amire80 Then please also reject the Xibe request, that's also created by non-speaker. If you won't reject and/or delete that request, then I don't see why I can't do so. On the opposite, if the contributor hates to request, then why are you forcing them to create so? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am not forcing anyone to do anything. I yet again ask you to stop making nonsensical accusations. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 04:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, you didn't force. So let's just continue discussing here, as said, there's no need to create a RFL at the moment, as whether those contributors are indeed and seriously contributing didn't seem to have a consensus. And it's unclear who nominated the deletion, is that one indeed ᱯᱨᱚᱯᱷᱮᱥᱥᱚᱨ? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:38, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Against deleting this project. The fact that it is a dialect is not a reason, there are several Wikipedias on dialects. According to Ethnologue, the language uses Latin script. Even if it is not very different from Santali, we should allow its speakers to write in Latin (the converter does not allow this). --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 10:14, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

@Danvintius Bookix Why do you think "the converter does not allow this"? If the only reason to create a new project with separate code is "to write in Latin", then Serbian, Kurdish, Kazakh, ... etc should also seek for a separate project written in Latin. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:40, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

You can write only on one script with a converter. In Serbian and Kazakh Wikipedia they write only in Cyrillic, in (Northern) Kurdish - in Latin. No, this is the only reason to create a new project. The reason is that there is a code and the language is apparently different. Look at azbwiki - it is Azerbaijani language, but in Arabic script. Kazakh Latin, Serbian Latin don′t have code, because it is a simple transliteration. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 11:43, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

@Danvintius Bookix"In Serbian and Kazakh Wikipedia they write only in Cyrillic"?! Then why I can find [3], [4], ... on srwiki? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:35, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, if "The reason is that there is a code and the language is apparently different.", then we don't need shwiki, as Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin, all 4 member of the Serbo-Croatian macrolanguage are having their codes, and their speakers said "apparently different" based just on orthographies, then what's the purpose of m:Croatian Wikipedia Disinformation Assessment-2021? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, you are right about the Serbian Wikipedia (I did′t know it). But there are still very few articles in Latin. The Kazakh Wikipedia only has Cyrillic. The Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, as far as I understand, is an exception, it was decided to keep it, although it no longer complies with the current rules. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 13:19, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Wp/kpy

Similar to Wp/nio. Zero actual content, zero speakers, but several main pages here since 2022. Таёжный лес (talk) 16:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Neutral, there are 2,630 native speakers, do we have ideas whether one of em can come to contribute? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Wp/dlg

Similar to /nio and /kpy. Three one-word articles, one article with unformatted alphabet and translations to Russian and Sakha and zero speakers here since 2010. Таёжный лес (talk) 18:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Neutral, there are 4,840 native speakers, same situation as kpy one. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Wp/non

As per the 2nd rejected RFL, the Old Norse is an extinct proto language, and having a test project violates LPP. Even though there are still Old adults can be considered Old Norse ethnic, they are generally migrated to speak Saami or standard Norwegian (maybe Bokmal or Nynorsk, I don't have interests), so I even don't know why this project was started. Maybe migrate to Incubator Plus before deleted? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Wp/crg

Almost all the pages are one-word stubs. The only page with significant text is not an encyclopedic article, but the Lord's prayer, and its text is also available in the English Wikipedia article about the language. The Meta request for the Wikipedia language was created by a banned user, and since it was obviously not serious, I speedily-deleted it. The language is probably eligible, but it should be done by serious people who actually know the language. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:24, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Neutral, per Ethnologue, while 75 in United States, decreasing, L2 users: 0. It also mentioned 1,910 in Canada, L1 users: 980. But the 8b (Nearly extinct) status would still be a lock for finding serious contributors. Maybe contacting WMCA for suggestions? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Some people to reach out to: [5], [6]. Amqui (talk) 02:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Wp/ils, Wp/tss, Wp/ycr

Most of the content in these Incubators was created by User:Sdf.

Wp/ils and Wp/tss only have main pages, which appear to be written in SignWriting, but that's it.

Wp/ycr has several one-word pages. They can perhaps be moved to a Wiktionary Incubator, but I'm not even sure about that.

I tried pinging User:Sdf on Meta about this and got no reply.

In this state, it's probably better to start those languages from scratch if anyone serious wants to do it. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:11, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Delete ils, No known L1 users according to a 2015 survey, so no hope for any seriously contributors. Neutral for tss and ycr, tss has 24,000 speakers and ycr 3,200, both belong to Taiwan, which looks like the home of Sdf. Tend to ask WMTW staffs @Supaplex, Ffaarr, Imacat, Alexsh, Koala0090, JM99, Reke, Natsu621 and 林非帶你飛 for inputs. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Deleted - Wp/ils, Wp/tss. Ninja✮Strikers ^«☎» 15:03, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Wp/kls

There is nothing there except a "main page" that is written in English and Urdu and not in Kalasha. The language is probably eligible, but should be started from scratch. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Neutral, there are 5,000 native speakers per Ethnologue, are there any possible to find some Pakistani contributors to maintain it? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Wp/lew

All the pages are very short and repetitive, and according to @Janwo, they aren't quite written in the claimed language. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

What i said was that in a few pages, I found sentences partly written in Bahasa Indonesia. --Janwo (talk) 06:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Neutral, 215,000 speakers, maybe contacting WMID for ideas? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Wp/mbb

Only one very short page. The user who created it is no longer active. It's better to start from scratch. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Neutral, 15,000 speakers, not sure whether m:Wiki Society of the Philippines has idea on finding real L1 speakers to contribute. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:57, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Wp/uum

Only a main page with some text in Ukrainian and English, written by someone who doesn't claim to know the language. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I wanted to create a main page to make the base of future wiki. I have written the guide how to start the Wikipedia in Ukrainian (official language in country where most of Urums live) and English (one of the most spoken languages in the world).

I think that that we should not delete the Wikipedia because Urum language has enough speakers to create a community for working on any wikiproject.

Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 12:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

When they actually come, it can be easily recreated. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't know. You are free to do what you think will be better, I will not be arguing. Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 17:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Support The Urum test project can be easily re-created. Таёжный лес (talk) 17:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Neutral, 1,000 in Ukraine, and No known L1 speakers in Georgia. Due to de facto War zone situation, I have less hope for serious contributors. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Wp/eve, Wt/eve, Wb/eve

1. For 12 years of existence Even Wikipedia, the project has not appeared even a single word in Even (:D). Only two articles were created - Wp/eve/Википедия, originally written in Latin Crimean Tatar, and Wp/eve/Монгол, written in Evenki. The main page is written entirely in Russian.
2. The Even Wiktionary is also not written in Even — all 88 articles either contain single Even word, or a word with a definition in Russian. The main page was initially written in Russian with a touch of Abkhazian.
3. The Even Wikibooks doesn't contain and hasn't contained a single article ever. The main page is written entirely in Russian, before that-entirely in English with Ukrainian interspersed, to which the category for Urum was also added.

I don't think it makes any sense to kept projects that have or has text in Russian, English, Ukrainian, Mongolian, Crimean Tatar, Abkhazian, Evenki, and Urum, but not in Even. Таёжный лес (talk) 17:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Definitely delete Wp and Wb.

I'm less sure about Wt. If these are actually Even words with translations into Russian, there is some value in that.

To alleviate any doubt, if people who know Even want to create Wikipedia or Wikibooks, they are welcome to recreate it. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

@Amire80 & Таёжный лес: Well, maybe these projects are more or less likely affected due to under same Tungusic umbrella and, if I remember correctly, many of them are initialized by MiiCii (notified at talk page, so no need to ping): Wp/mnc (has a RFL verified as eligible), Wt/mnc (has a RFL verified as eligible), Wb/mnc, Wn/mnc (just a placeholder), Wq/mnc, Wy/mnc (just a placeholder), Wp/sjo (has a RFL), Wp/gld, Wt/gld, Wb/gld (just a placeholder), Wp/oaa, Wt/oaa, Wb/oaa (just a placeholder), Wp/ulc, Wt/ulc, Wb/ulc (just a placeholder), Wp/evn (has a rejected RFL), Wt/evn, Wb/evn (just a placeholder), Wp/neg, Wt/neg, Wb/neg (just a placeholder), Wp/orh, Wt/orh, Wb/orh (just a placeholder), Wp/oac, Wt/oac, Wb/oac (just a placeholder), Wp/ude, Wt/ude and Wb/ude (just a placeholder). If the quality of these projects are also eve-like, then I would love to extend this deletion requests to cover em. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

For record, per Ethnologue: Even - 5,300 in Russia, 7 (Shifting). Evenki - 11,000 in China, 5,830 in Russia (6b (Threatened) in both), No known L1 speakers in Mongolia. Nanai - 3,180 in Russia, 8a (Moribund), 40 in China, 8b (Nearly extinct). Manchu - 20 in China, 8b (Nearly extinct). Negidal - 22 in Russia, 8a (Moribund). Orok - 89 in Russia, 8a (Moribund), 3 in Japan, 8b (Nearly extinct). Oroch - 43 in Russia, 8b (Nearly extinct). Oroqen - 1,200 in China, 8a (Moribund). Xibe - 30,000 in China, 6b (Threatened). Udihe - 190 in Russia, 8a (Moribund). Ulch - 510 in Russia, 8a (Moribund). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The number of speakers is not very relevant here. Manchu has very few speakers, but very active editors. If editors come, a new Incubator can easily be created. The discussion here is not about the languages, but about the content in the Incubator. There is pretty much nothing in the current content, so it's better to delete it. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 00:36, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

@Amire80 Wp/grc has even no speakers, but also "very active editors", actually, my worry about Manchu is based on a 2022 discussion where several "users" are not real single contributors, but just someone who created one account by one hand, and another account by another hand, 3rd account by one foot, and 4th account by another foot... all in one - socks. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this may be appliable to other projects. MiCii is related to only one of them, just to that with highest quality. Таёжный лес (talk) 06:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

In addition, many of them have valuable content created by this languages speakers. Таёжный лес (talk) 06:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

All of the Wt/eve pages are available on existing Wiktionary versions. Таёжный лес (talk) 07:00, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226 Agree to delete any projects just a placeholder mentioned above.

It's reasonable not to keep them.

Recreating them after the speakers who are able to edit the projects of these languages have joined. MiiCii 02:06, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Wp/tvx

Even though a code was granted in 2019, it's still an extinct language, so having a test project violates LPP, and hence its RFL rejected recently. As there are good contents, migrating to 3rd party website such as Incubator Plus would be fair than just delete. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

There's a lot of content there. I don't know whether it's good Taivoan, but I am assuming good faith.

It probably shouldn't be speedily and completely deleted, but rather moved to Incubator Plus. I'm not directly experienced with this myself, however, so I'm not sure what's the process for doing that. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 00:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually I'm also considering to do samething for Wp/grc, but for that, I will need a stackholder to preserve those contents wishing to be migrated. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

As a teacher of the Taivoan language and the main contributor to Wp/tvx, I can confidently say that labeling the language as "extinct" is not accurate at all. The Taivoan language is a dormant language, not an extinct one, as the indigenous people have been working to revive it based on the rich vocabulary and sentences left by the Dutch people in the 17th century. These documents include the Gospel of Matthew (23,000–25,000 words), the Catechism (nearly 10,000 words), and the Gospel of John (more than 15,000 words), which was only recently discovered in 2019.

Now we have a simple and yet encouraging dictionary in Taivoan, published in 2023, along with three versions of textbooks published by three Taivoan communities in two dialects — one in 2022 and the other two in 2024. We have also recently completed three sessions of language courses, covering from daily vocabulary to religious lyrics, with students ranging in age from 10 to 66 years old. This initiative enables people to teach their children how to read the language or even integrate it into the tourism industry they have been developing in the past decade.

As we prepare to file a new request to create a Taivoan Wikipedia, your support in preserving the works of Wp/tvx is crucial. Thank you for your understanding and support. Bellenion (talk) 10:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I would however think that Wikipedia isn't the only way for this, there could also have other wiki host platforms e.g. wiki.gg. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, @Bellenion.

I'm a member of the Language committee, but I'm not speaking on behalf of the whole committee in this comment, and this is only my own opinion.

Given what Bellenion writes, I now think even more strongly that we should assume good faith and that this Incubator shouldn't be deleted at all.

I marked the first request for this language on Meta as "rejected" mainly because the language is classified as "extinct" by ISO 639 3, and the proposal policy allows only Wikisource projects in extinct languages. That request had some other problems, which are quite relevant to this discussion. It was created by a user who didn't do almost anything else on Wikimedia projects and who probably doesn't know the language. The request also included nonsense and unrealistic claims about the language.

So that request has practically nothing to do with the actual content of the Incubator and with the people who have written there. In fact, perhaps it would be even better if I deleted it completely instead of just rejecting it. (I have gone over a lot of requests for new languages in the last few weeks, and I noticed that this strange and undesirable phenomenon is surprisingly common. I hope that I'll find the time to prevent it more strictly going forward.)

It is okay if the content stays, and if Bellenion and other people who actually know something about this language create a new request for it on Meta and explain the language's status the way they see it. It does happen that ISO 639 3 classifies languages incorrectly, and that information can be updated, especially when everything is done by serious people with good intentions and relevant knowledge. This is not a commitment to mark the language as eligible, but a well-written request that explains how the language conforms to the Language proposal policy may be approved.

I'd also like to add that if Bellenion is interested in it, digitizing the already-published content in this language, like the Gospels he mentioned, is definitely desirable. It already can be done on the Multilingual Wikisource - https://wikisource.org. If there is enough material, it can even be converted to a separate Wikisource domain eventually. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 16:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Amire80 What I request isn't "deleted at all", but migrate to another better platform, due to Wikipedia's de facto, and ad hoc situation that exclude newcommers of extinct languages as well as possible.

"It is okay if the content stays" by reviewing scowiki issue, that's really a questionable suggestion, if there are no L1 speakers, then who can warrant that these are indeed in Taivoan instead of another new, unrelated Pidgin or Creole and/or Conlang? "It does happen that ISO 639 3 classifies languages incorrectly" maybe, but Ethnologue said more briefly factual situation that No known L1 speakers. The last known speaker died near the end of the 1800s. so far, @Bellenion: I'd love to suggest not to create a new request for it on Meta too soon, but try to do what Thao did: 2021-028 request, to change type to living, adopted.

So yes, digitizing the already-published content in this language as well as possible, such languages shall focus on the Wikisource inclusion instead of Wikipedia, or otherwise why we need Wikisource? Wikipedia has 5 pillars that every language has to follow without any reservation, or otherwise got closed: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (where extinct languages can't be encyclopedia by themselves), Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view (where, by practices, extinct languages can only provide their own POVs instead of neutral), Wikipedia is free content that anyone can use, edit, and distribute (where extinct languages can't be used by non interests, and can only distribute in a very limited aforementioned region), Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility (where extinct languages can only treat other languages' speakers "unfair", "discriminate", etc. without any frontage prejudices), Wikipedia has no firm rules (where extinct languages set too much of unnecessary firm rules). But do Wikisource wikis have them? No.

For many years, there are several ad hoc claims that a language "must first open their Wikipedia first", this can also be vetoed simply by Shawiya example: their Wiktionary has created, but Wikipedia rejected. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226, in this reply, you make many false claims, such as this one: "Wikipedia has 5 pillars that every language has to follow without any reservation".

Please stop doing this. I already asked you: before you cite something that you think is a rule, check whether it is actually a rule. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 01:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Amire80 I didn't say 5 pillars are rules, instead, I acknowledge with original texts: The fundamental principles of Wikipedia may be summarized in five "pillars". Fundamental principles aren't "rules", but also have to follow. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

If you are referring to the page m:Founding principles, it's not so consistent with what you write, and it's not very relevant to this discussion anyway. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 02:33, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Wp/dar

Dear, in the Dargin version of the incubator, I found a large number of articles not in the literary dialect, I put templates where the language is incorrect so that the articles are deleted, please delete these articles as soon as you can, those who have administrator rights Saad Dargan (talk) 11:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe, it written in other dialect? All dargin languages have one ISO code. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 11:57, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I speak two dialects, all articles are written mainly in two dialects, those in which I speak, half of the text is everywhere in Russian with a huge number of errors in Dargin, articles without errors and correctly written in one of the dialects I leave Saad Dargan (talk) 11:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

So, if I understand correctly, the articles are written in bad Dargin mixed with Russian (presumedly, created by non-native speakers). How feasible is it to correct the language? If that's possible, that should be the first way to go. --OWTB (talk) 09:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

yes, you got it right. I correct what can be corrected, but my plans are to clear the incubator of articles that do not correspond to the Dargin language and start writing correct articles myself. besides, in addition to the language in the article, the title is incorrectly indicated for 60% of the articles 2A02:8108:286:D000:985:AB9D:2ED6:4815 09:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Saad Dargan, вы хотите удалить все нынешние страницы в Инкубаторе на даргинском языке, или только те, которые вы пометили? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

только те, что я пометил, так как там имеются добротные статьи. Saad Dargan (talk) 09:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Хорошо. Такие вещи не надо просить на этой странице. Эта страница для запроса удаления всех страниц на определённом языке.

А те, что вы пометили настолько плохие, что их нельзя просто исправить? Обязательно удалить? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 12:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

понял, да, они неполные а те что написаны 10 лет назад написаны на извращенном языке который не имеет ничего общего ни с одним диалектом. буду писать заново добротные статьи 2A00:20:7010:7B15:69C8:D46C:C1F9:9748 12:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Wp/sxu

As per the rejected RFL, there are no evidences why Upper Saxon is distinct from standard German, as such, this project is weird, the Upper Saxon contents can just be provided, and speakers of that can just contribute, the dewiki, maybe these contents should merge to dewiki first? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. A rejected RFL is not a permanent ruling and could potentially be approved if a second RFL is proposed in the future with strong backing from the local Upper Saxon community. This language does not look 'weird'. It has its own ISO 693-3 Code and there are 2,000,000 native speakers (comparable to Hunsrik Wikipedia which has 3 million native speakers). Upper Saxon has a significant presence in Saxony and holds cultural importance to the inhabitants there and authors have written & published books in this language. Germany is a signatory to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages and Part II of that Charter mentions "The prohibition of all forms of unjustified distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference relating to the use of a regional or minority language and intended to discourage or endanger its maintenance or development." --DaveZ123 (talk) 08:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

[7] suggests that It is indeed only a regional spoken variety, and completely mutually intelligible with standard German, the only sightly difference looks like regional pronunciation, to which there should probably create a script converter, see also mw:LanguageConverter, verily say, German should probably be the first European Union official language with LanguageConverter support in production wikis like dewiki (that section listed English has "Pig Latin" but only for testing). But indeed, if you really have evidences why the rejection rationale is wrong (e.g. you have them to refute mutually intelligiblity with dewiki), you can submit a second request as appeal, so that everything would be re-analysed. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Wp/tin

Lack of any Tindi content since creation in 2009. Have only two created in 2011 one-word pages Wp/tin/Хъварщи and Wp/tin/Идараб мицци, where first of them in Avar, not in Tindi. Таёжный лес (talk) 10:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral [8] told me: 4,730 speakers according to a 2020 census, but it's an Unwritten [Qaax] language, maybe more investigations are needed before any actions here. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Wp/bph

Same story as Wp/tin above: three one-word pages, a copied template in Russian and a main page entirely in Russian as well. Not a single sentence in Botlikh, and quite obviously never touched by anyone with knowledge of the language.  IJzeren Jan (besěda) 18:15, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral 5,240 speakers, also Unwritten [Qaax] language, as such, my comment to tin above also applies here. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:50, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not about numbers of speakers. A small but dedicated community can be enough to create a thriving project (like this one, which 50 speakers), but sometimes a project is closed for the simple reason that nobody wants or needs it, even if the language itself has a million speakers or more. Here we аre dealing with a test wiki created by an anonymous user who clearly doesn't know the language, but simply copy-'n-pasted a main page in Russian from some other test wiki, as well as three one-word pages with words that were probably found here, here and here, none of which have ever been edited by anyone else. According to policy, all four of them qualify for deletion. Since there's nothing worth preserving here, wouldn't you agree that it would be better to start from scratch once someone shows up who actually speaks the language?  IJzeren Jan (besěda) 22:43, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Full Support of deletion per nominator. Таёжный лес (talk) 05:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Wt/rml

All pages are completely written in Russian, not in Baltic Romani. Таёжный лес (talk) 15:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Wp/lah/Main Page

Do we really need a project using macrolanguage code, where all of its member language codes are either having separate test projects, or already having Wikipedias for years? Specifically for the lah:

1. Southern Hindko (hnd) - test project
2. Northern Hindko (hno) - test project
3. Jakati (jat) - test project (but claimed "Jatki" which cause another RFD above)
4. Pahari-Potwari (phr) - test project
5. Western Panjabi (pnb) - pnbwiki exists
6. Saraiki (skr) - skrwiki exists
7. Khetrani (xhe) - test project

--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:59, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Wp/jat & this be deleted because macro languages are not allowed. same case is for Wp/bal. Sraiki (talk) 17:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not discussing Wp/bal due to verification debates in the past months, see 1, 2, and 3. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:29, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, If Wp/lah is remained, what will be its dialect. so be deleted. also wp/jat be removed because code is not correct. Sraiki (talk) 15:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)