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This is an official Incubator policy.
This page has been elaborated and approved by the community and its compliance is mandatory for all users. You may edit it, but please discuss major changes on the talk page first.

This page is for nominating test wikis for deletion, or for nominating pages related to the maintenance of the Incubator for deletion. To request the deletion of individual pages in a specific test wiki, please use the relevant talk pages where the editors of the test wiki are most active (such as the talk page of the test wiki's Main Page). Pages that should be speedily deleted should be tagged with {{delete}} with a proper reason.

Common reasons for deleting pages here on the Incubator include:

  • Speedy deletion requests (vandalism, spelling corrections, correcting prefixes etc.)
  • Deletion of a complete test wiki according to the "Closure or Deletion" policy

It is typically not necessary to request that pages in a test wiki be deleted after the project has been given its own subdomain (e.g., aa.wikipedia.org), since such deletions are part of the normal workflow when creating new wikis. Eventually all pages in the test wiki will be deleted, leaving behind only the info page.

Deletion policy[edit source]

Requests for deleting single pages[edit source]

  • Pages that may be subject to speedy deletion:
    • In general, the rules for speedy deletion are the same as listed on Meta.
      • One rule for speedy deletion unique to Incubator is that pages in the wrong language — either with a prefix reflecting an invalid ISO 639 language code, or written in a language different from the one in the prefix — can be deleted.
      • Similarly, pages having an incorrect prefix where a copy with a correct prefix also exists are eligible for speedy deletion. Please include a link to the correctly prefixed page on the deletion template.
    • Speedy deletions may be proposed by putting {{delete}} (and a reason) on the pages that should be deleted and will thereby be added to Category:Maintenance:Delete, where an administrator will decide about them. It is not needed to vote on a speedy deletion. If there are doubts, the administrator reviewing the speedy deletion request will ask the proposer. If you have doubts, but are not an administrator, you are also free to add a remark below the {{delete}} template on the page.
      If the reason you give is because the current name is wrong, somehow (grammar, spelling, etc.), administrators normally assume the content has been moved to a different (better) location. It will help the administrators if you include a link to the moved page in your deletion request.
      Consider turning the wrong spelling into a redirect to the right spelling before asking for deletion. (And please note that if the wrong spelling is likely to be a common misspelling, it may be useful to leave the redirect, both here and once your test is in its own subdomain.)
      If you do not turn the wrong spelling into a redirect, please simply add {{delete}} to the top of the page. Do not blank out the rest of the page.
    • Please remember: pages cannot be speedy-deleted as long as other pages link to them. Please modify all incoming links before requesting speedy deletion; otherwise, simply leave the original page as a redirect. (Note: This rule doesn't always apply to incoming links from discussion pages and similar administrative pages, if the discussion is already settled.)
  • In other cases, you may put a request below.

Requests for test deletions[edit source]

  1. You can propose the deletion of an entire test-wiki. Common reasons for this can be that langcom has rejected the creation of this wiki as a separate project, or that the test-wiki only contains nonsensical content not written in the language it should be in.
    1. You can vote, but it has just a little bit of influence. Arguments are better.
    2. You can propose moving the test to the Incubator Plus.
  2. After 10 days, an administrator will make a decision about deleting the test or not. For obvious cases, especially when the pages only contain vandalism/spam/test edits, a decision can be made earlier.
  3. If needed, an XML file must be exported (needed means: if the test is not vandalism or nonsense – in general, use common sense).
  4. Remember that this has nothing directly to do with the decision of the language committee (langcom).

Requests for undeletions[edit source]

All requests for deleted pages to be restored can be added below, as well. (Edit the next section, not this one.)


Requests[edit source]

Wp/odt, Wt/odt and Wp/dum[edit source]

Believe me, this hurts! I love the older stages of my native language.

But we can't keep them, per language policy, and for the obvious reason that these projects haven't gained momentum. Old Dutch is very scantily transmitted, you'd have to reconstruct just too many words to even write a lemma about medieval things. It also has far fewer proficient readers than Old English. Middle Dutch does have a rich literature in all genres from religion to accountancy, and (in its written form) is much more different from modern Dutch than Middle English is from modern English, but again, a Wikipedia in it would violate policy and would probably never be succesful. And it, too, might attract nonsense edits. Steinbach (talk) 11:12, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep: On a first glance, the quality looks relatively well, so I wouldn't mind keeping them here. In case, the community decides otherwise, I will gladly export it to Incubator Plus as it would be a shame to see what little is there being deleted. --OWTB (talk) 20:32, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not commenting on their quality (btw wasn't it you who created both of them years ago). I'm just saying: why keep them here if there is absolutely no chance that they will ever be approved? Steinbach (talk) 17:06, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have only created the main pages to accompany any pre-existing subpages. The reason for not deleting them is that, while there is no chance for a subdomain, they are according to our policy valid, as they have an ISO-code. Deleting good contents is always unnecessary. As I'm more or less neutral to keeping them (and Wt/odt?) here, I am always willing to export them to Incubator Plus. --OWTB (talk) 07:59, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OWTB, I'd love to also mention Wt/odt in this section as it looks also badly contributed. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:26, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Regareless, delete both, having bad quality articles that are wrongly maintained. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In case of deletion, please let me know, and I'll transfer them to Incubator Plus. --OWTB (talk) 06:11, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ooswesthoesbes I don't think they need to be exported since they are possibly copyvio pages. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:26, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Old Dutch (odt) tests don't look like they are copyvio pages though. The Middle Dutch (dum) do look more suspicious. --OWTB (talk) 20:55, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We should come to a decision here. The projects have no chance of approval, are totally inactive and have little content. I think deletion with moving to Incubator Plus would be a solution. --MF-W {a, b} 15:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto for the below one (Wt/cu)? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:12, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Moving to Incubator Plus and deleting it here sounds like the best option indeed. --OWTB (talk) 11:06, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wt/cu[edit source]

Very small pages, test main page is a copy from cu:главьна страница, there is a Сѥ ѥстъ мъногоѩꙁꙑчьна отврьста єнкѷклопєдїꙗ · ѭжє къжьдо можєтъ иꙁмѣнꙗти ⁙ Википєдїꙗ пьсана [[||Словѣньскъ ѩꙁꙑкъ|словѣньскꙑимь ѩꙁꙑкомь]] начѧта ѥстъ їоунїꙗ 2006 лѣта Дьньсь Википєдїи 4 члѣни сѫтъ text (no difference from wikipedia), some english text in, unactive wiki. 155.137.183.105 17:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, This is the Wiktionary Old church Slavonic LOLI'mfriggin silly (talk) 02:42, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/tpn and Wp/tpw[edit source]

Per I:AN#Unable to create a page, both Tupinambá and Old Tupí are extinct languages, so having both test projects violate LPP, there's another living language Nheengatu to which modern Tupi peoples speak and write (see Wp/yrl), so there's nothing beneficial for me to still maintain two extinct coded projects. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:02, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that these pages are for the same language, there's any way to move it into Incubator Plus 2.0? There are some indigenous groups attempting to revive Old Tupi, so it might be useful to have something there. Erick Soares3 (talk) 19:00, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, if you want to, you may use Special:Export, then use Incubator Plus's Special:Import (ask their administrators if you saw permission errors). Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:49, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's always possible. If you want anything exported, give me a sign. --OWTB (talk) 08:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Take a note that a request for tpw.wikipedia is now rejected, so personally both projects can go to Incubator Plus now (if contributors are still thinking they are useful). Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:24, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/jat, Wt/jat, Wb/jat, Wn/jat, Wq/jat and Wy/jat[edit source]

Per w:en:Special:Diff/1121838578, it's suspected (at least by @Uanfala) that pages in this test project aren't written in Inku (aka Jakati, which iso639-3:jat points to), probably a linguist in the affected region should join here to discuss whether their suspect is true. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:38, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Example text in Inku language is same as Jatki language. The code Jat was initially fir Jatki languge. In the article of Inku it is clearly written that the language belong to Punjab pronvice of Pakistan.
This wikipedia is written in Jatki language. So, this wikipedia should not be deleted. Otherwise a large no of written material may be destroyed. So it should be continued. Sraiki (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First, there used to be serious confusion about which exact language was denoted by the ISO code "jat". See the commentary in the Glottolog entry [2]. This appears to have largely been resolved now, with both Glottolog and Ethnologue using that code for Inku, the language of a few small itinerant groups of Afghanistan that was probably never written and that may well be extinct by now. The name "Jakati" [sic], surprisingly still visible in the ISO 639-3 code tables [3], is almost certainly erroneous. The similar name "Jatki" appears never to have been used for Inku, but was historically common for a number of related languages of Pakistani Punjab (see en:Jatki language), most notably for what is nowadays known as Saraiki, a language with millions of speakers, a solid written tradition, and a Wikipedia of its own. Now, I don't speak any of those languages, so I can't know for sure. My hunch is that those incubator articles about places in Punjab that appear to use what looks to me like Saraiki orthography, are unlikely to be written in a possibly extinct language of Afghanistan. User:Sraiki, maybe you can help us here: what exact language have you written those articles in? where is it spoken? by how many people? Uanfala (talk) 12:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
These articles are written the language, which is known Jatki. It is mainly spoken in Bar region . It is called Jatki in the region. It is spoken by more than 50% population of that region. The population of Jatki is more than 10 M. In all old documents it is Jatki.This language is entirely different from Saraiki and Punjabi. See this for more details, https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/895 .This language is also called en:Shahpuri dialect and en:Jhangvi dialect. This Jatki was also called en:Lahnda in old litrature whose Iso code is lah. As there is no current ISO code for Jhangvi and Shahpuri, I used Iso code of Jatki, because jat is code for Jatki and Jatki is mainly used for these dialects. See also https://www.routledge.com/Dictionary-of-the-Jatki-or-Western-Panjabi-Language/Jukes/p/book/9780367248680 This book is about Jatki language. Sraiki (talk) 12:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Sraiki, Engr.ismailbhutta "I used Iso code of Jatki"? The problem is that iso639-3:jat page says Jakati, not Jatki, I'd say that this is an issue that should be resolved, or else it would be ultra-unfair for Inku/Jakati speakers (if any), as there are two cases the existing Wikipedias were occupied (good to say so?) codes for other unrelated languages (nrmwiki, says Norman Wikipedia but code is for Narom, and Wikipedia 10, which code is for Tama), and at least I really don't want it to be happened 3rd times and more. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:12, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would support the merger of this incubator with existing pnb Wikipedia if possible. The Jatki dialect is widely understood by speakers of other dialects—for example, it is the dialect of Toba Tek Singh District where my family is from. My family are Doabi speakers (an eastern dialect) but many of the words we use overlap with Jatki due to two centuries having passed since my family left eastern Punjab. The Shahmukhi Punjabi Wikipedia already has very few active contributors, and see this energy focused there instead would be most welcome. Any differences that make a given dialect distinctive could also be applied to any other, making it less clear what is left as non-dialectal Punjabi. What is called the “standard” dialect (Majhi) is much more loose of a definition than that of other languages—the language, especially as it is used in Pakistan, has never had a single register which can truly be considered the “main” one due to its lack of official status and use in primarily colloquial contexts. In John Beames's comparative grammar of the northern Indic languages, he reckoned that Punjabi likely has the most dialect variation within the language out of all the major ones for lack of a standard written register. I would say that in line with that, it is perfectly fine for pnb Wikipedia to include articles written in a variety of dialects, and in fact should be expected if the project is meant to represent Punjabi as a whole as it is used in Pakistan. عُثمان (talk) 14:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(talk) Jatki is well known language in Pakistan which is spoken in 11 districts (Jhang, Chiniot, Toba Tek Singh, Sargodha, Khushab, Sahiwal, Pakpattan, Okara, Bahawalnagar, Vehari and Khanewal districts) of bar region of Punjab province over the area of 49,121 km². The population of Jatki language speaking areas is 26,374,221 according to census 2017 which is more than 50% jatki speaking and others are settlers from India on partition and other parts of Pakistan but they are not locals. The main,local and ancient language of bar region is jatki which has very rich literature and culture. My forefathers migrated from bar region to Saraiki region but the term "inko" is new for me and the people of bar region because their language is Jatki. So I endorse the comments of Mr Sraiki and I request to carry on the Wikipedia project for jatki language to save its literature and culture, regards. Ismail Bhutta 14:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

OK, I see. So Jatki, the language variety that both Sraiki and Ismail Bhutta refer to above, is one that doesn't have a dedicated ISO code. It is intermediate between pnb ("Western Punjabi" as used by the SIL) and skr (Saraiki). It is one of the many varieties that fall under the scope of the macrolanguage lah (Lahnda), but I don't think the code [lah] can be re-appropriated specifically for this variety. The code [jat] can't be used either, as that presently refers to the Inku language of Afghanistan (there has been confusion around that code before, but never to my knowledge has it been used for a language of Pakistan). The only way forward that I can see is to come up with a new Wikimedia-specific language code and then move the test wikipedia accordingly. I don't know how exactly Incubator works, so someone more knowledgeable could take up this task? Uanfala (talk) 19:45, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In such cases, the new codes should be a part of SIL's code change requests, probably ask @Amire80: on the details? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:50, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/juc[edit source]

iso639-3:juc is currently classified this language as Extinct, therefore having an Incubator test project violates LPP, as the Jurchen people (if even having elders) are nowadays shifted to speak Manchu (even though have low numbers of native speakers), I don't see why such finger-counted pages are having benefits here. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:28, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After reading Liuxinyu970226's request for deletion, I endorse the opinion of this user. Although Jurchen Wikipedia was created by myself, I think it's useless to maintain a Wiki project on an extinct language. My views on deleting Jurchen Wikipedia are as follows.
First and foremost, just as Liuxinyu970226 mentioned above, Jurchen is an extinct language whose speakers have shifted to Manchu. Jurchen script was created in early Jin dynasty (金朝, 1115-1234) by Wanyan Xiyin (完颜希尹) according to Chinese character and Nurhachi's grandfather Wang Gao (王杲, 1529-1575), who lived during the Ming dynasty (1368-1644) is thought to be one of the last person who can write Jurchen script. Moreover, The Jurchen characters I entered on the Jurchen Wikipedia are not included in Unicode, so they cannot be displayed correctly and are displayed as rectangles which are unrecognizable. The script used in Jurchen Wikipedia can only be displayed by the font called “CCAMC Jurchen & Khitan Std”. Afterwards, Jurchen script has not been completely deciphered, and there are still some characters that have not been figured out. Hence, from my perspective, we should focus on editing Manchu Wikipedia rather than the Jurchen one. So it's reasonable to delete the Jurchen Wikipedia. --MiiCii (talk) 04:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/akv[edit source]

This project is following in the footsteps of the Ter Saami wp in that it is one word in the language followed by its equivalent in Russian and a pic. This project also has the equivalent in English for some reason. For example, this page on sheep, which also includes the Avar word for the animal. Main page is in Russian, except for the pagename, which is in English. Seems to mainly be the work of a non-native speaker. No request at Meta. Yupik (talk) 19:59, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wt/ota[edit source]

Like the previous Wp/ota one (see archive), this language is already Historical for several centuries, and hence violate LPP. With regards to several look-like useful contents, it's preferred to merge this test project into Turkish Wiktionary, or else move to Incubator Plus. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If there's an Incubator Plus or a domain of the Turkish Wikipedia where people interested in the language can make a case for it, these may be good solutions. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:32, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Turkish pages on Wp/atv[edit source]

All these pages were created by an anonymous user from Turkey in 2009 and are written in Latin, unlike the Cyrillic alphabet used in Northern Altai.

All of them are not written in Northern Altai, but in Turkish and contain only a few images from Wikimedia Commons. Таёжный лес (talk) 18:32, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Problem has been fixed now Σιδέρης10 (talk) 20:05, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No. Таёжный лес (talk) 15:11, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/arq[edit source]

It is evident that this project has been unsuccessful. Dialects cannot be regarded as complete languages due to the absence of established grammatical rules. In Algeria, different regions speak different dialects.

The lack of quality content and properly sourced articles is apparent, with users often duplicating information from other wikis or even themselves. Despite my initial involvement and support for the project, I no longer endorse it. The project has failed to gain momentum over the years. The same situation occurred with the Egyptian version, which was promoted as a Wikipedia versions that would compete with other wikis. However, it did not live up to that expectation, featuring nonsensical articles, lack of notability, a shortage of users, absence of involved admins, and extensive copy-pasting from the Arabic Wikipedia. Moreover, due to the variations in dialects, individuals from different points in Egypt struggle to understand each other if they use their pure dialects. While efforts have been made to keep these projects alive, there is a reality that cannot be ignored. Riad Salih (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a neutral observer I must note that inactivity is not a valid reason to delete a test wiki. Neither is the things that have happened on wikis of related languages.
Duplicating contents, and especially unsourced, however, can be a valid reason. For that, I advise you to give us concrete examples. --OWTB (talk) 12:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To fully comprehend the distinctions, one must engage with the Algerian dialect, as it differs from Algerian Arabic. Often, individuals mistakenly conflate a language with a somewhat dialect and a dialect with mere variations. Linguists possess the ability to differentiate between these linguistic categories. However, due to the limited number of contributors involved in such projects, which predominantly operate in obscurity, people are generally unaware of their existence. Consequently, we rely on ISO standards to validate the legitimacy of a language, as there is no significant opposition.
The articles use a mix of dialect, and if you read a single article, you will be confused by the dialect used. For example, take Wp/arq/باب لواد. If a real reader from Algeria reads this, they will probably laugh. And what's the purpose of citing Wikipedia French as a reference? The same goes for "Wp/arq/مناضميّات." Do Algerians use مناضميّات to refer to Computer Science? No, it's clear they just fill the article to boost the numbers and try to gain validation.
Dezedien is the only person here trying to push this project and make it real without any support from real contributors. The case of the Maghreb region in North Africa is different from Spanish as an exemple, which has different dialects as versions.
Even the reasons he is citing below are nonsensical, to say the least. Leaving a legacy to scholars or linguists? For that, there are press articles in newspapers, YouTube videos, etc. "A source of work for the scientific community" seriously? Can he give us some examples to support his point of view?
All the content was pushed to be added just to bring the version, making a profit from the absence of Algerian contributions. It's random content without any quality, simply copied and translated from French and Arabic articles, mostly by students who never contribute again outside of their university courses. Riad Salih (talk) 01:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP : I apologize, @Riad Salih, for any inconvenience caused by the difficulty you may be experiencing in transcribing the dialect you use daily.
Firstly, it is important to clarify that the initiators and those who have renewed this project aim to promote and preserve Algerian Arabic, which already exists in various forms, much like English, French, and Spanish. This project is the result of several initiatives, the most recent being the participation of 300 students from the University of Chlef in translating articles from Arabic to Algerian.
It is understandable that there may be inconsistencies and similarities with the Arabic language, as Algerian is considered Algerian Arabic.
It is important to acknowledge that
The goal may not necessarily be to...
- Create a new language (it already exists)
- Compete with another language (it's evolving on its own)
- Create the same number of articles as wikipedia Arabic or English
- Create quality articles - content is in its beginning stages
This project is mainly intended to
- A source of work for the scientific community
- Educators and linguists looking for texts in Algerian
- Propose and not impose an spelling for writing Algerian
- Leave a documented, digitized source of Algerian spoken language for future generations
Each project has its own community and its own pace of development.
It is important to avoid putting this project in competition, because it does not belong to the same category.
The Egyptian Wikipedia has been much and wrongly compared to the Arabic Wikipedia.
and this century-old debate and I do not recommend eliminating it, you are trying to destroy the effort of many volunteers.
If you have any concerns regarding this project, please do not hesitate to voice them. otherwise let the other volunteers continue its development. It has been in hibernation for quite a while because the team preferred to rethink the strategy by developing the Wiktionary this year while adopting a good spelling to allow us to rediscover the richness of Algerian and develop articles in complete coherence with Algerian.
hope it will be good for you. Dezedien (talk) 13:30, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, Initially, you were strongly opposed to this version, and now you changed your position. Well, it will be a failure like other projects. This is a nonsensical project. English, French, and Arabic have already a very few Algerian contributors, and you expect variations of dialects that are not mutually intelligible to produce good articles undestanble from all the Algerians.
Please tell that the students from universities in Chlef, Mostaganem, and other places were not actively creating articles but primarily engaged in translating French articles. They were compelled to do so as part of their university assignments, leaving them with no choice but to fulfil this obligation. It would be worth investigating the current status of contributors from these students, both for the French Wikipedia and the Algerian Wikipedia. However, it appears that the number of active contributors from this group is currently zero.
These are dialect versions and not Algerian Arabic is it is promoted, which can confuse people here. The Algerian dialect is mixed with French, Spanish, Turkish, and other words that do not belong to Arabic.
Moreover, if you look at the articles here, most of them are translated by some Moroccans with a clear Moroccan dialect, using words that never belonged to Algerian society, just to push for the existence of an Algerian Wikipedia, similar to what happened with the Moroccan version. This resulted in a degradation of language and knowledge and the quality of articles. They even ended up translating scholarly citations and quotes, which makes no sense.
Wikipédia has a universal vocation, as it is one of its founding principles. However, any project with a weak foundation is destined to decline. n Algerian Wikipedia will become a nationalist encyclopedia, leading to conflicts among contributors. It will end up being an encyclopedia without quality content, and its potential for growth is so limited. To gain a better understanding, you can verify the the Moroccan version.
In the end, you are alleging that I am responsible for destroying the efforts of many volunteers, an accusation that is both unfair and unacceptable. I choose not to engage in a response to this statement as it surpasses the assumption of good faith. Regards Riad Salih (talk) 21:12, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Chère @Riad Salih
Please refrain from telling only real, proven facts, without peddling or facts that never happened.
I'm really surprised to read your last message full of false accusations.
I will answer a few points, I respect your opinion, I just ask you to respect the opinions of others and not pretend and say what is not.
- You say for me what I didn't say, where did you get that?
- You accuse the university and the teacher of imposing a job on the students when you haven't even been to Chlef or discussed the program with a single person.
- Your theory about Algerian is questionable, it's exactly what happens with Amazigh and it's the only way to transfer knowledge with Algerian.
- You want to divert the discussion to words like nationalism, and that's wrong, but it's a purely neutral project aimed at linguists.
take a look at this page she the work of Said Tadjer
he offered us a dictionary of 2500 words in Algerian he wrote all the hortograph rules to write in Algerian we are just waiting for the right moment to add them to wikidata and wiktionnair we did it with only 1000 words
https://web.facebook.com/groups/425268594189148/?_rdc=1&_rdr
Finally, I'd like to invite you to a discussion about Algerian. If you agree, we can organize a meeting on googlemeet/zoom and I'll invite university professors who teach Algerian in Canada/Italy/France and Algeria.
regard
Their work is currently serving AI and now you want to suppress it.
I'm really sorry, compare this to the destruction of books in the Middle Ages.
Let this project develop at its own rhythm . Dezedien (talk) 15:32, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My proposal is to retain this project while removing and revising the current articles that are of subpar quality. This is the only solution to preserve this project. If the problem is related to the quality of the articles, we will carry out a total verification. The quality, quantity, and number of articles are not significant, but if the quantity exceeds 1000 articles, we will revisit all of them. This will allow us to set up a system of quality control for the articles and ensure the project can continue for future editors. We are seeking contributors for this improvement project to transcribe Algerian derdja for quality studies and to transcribe Algerian content using local languages and dialects. It is important to note that this project is not intended to compete with other languages, particularly Arabic, nor is it meant to create a new language. Rather, it aims to document existing knowledge using local languages and dialects. Dezedien (talk) 11:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi back,
I am myself concerned with sociolinguistics and the differences between languages and dialects, If you wish to engage in a discussion, I welcome your linguists to participate and share their perspectives here.
It is not about competition with Arabic. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to test if a dialect can stand on its own and be standardized as a language. ISO isn't a way to argue that it is a full language.
The case of Algeria is very complex. We have two sociolinguistic phenomena: bilingualism (French, Arabic, English, Berber) and diglossia (two varieties of languages exist side by side throughout the community), which is mostly the case here. We have a high variety (Standard Arabic) and a low variety (Darija - Algerian Arabic). Low varieties can't be used in this context since they are auto-implemented for low purposes in Algerian society and not for learning, writing, or searching… etc. In high-context fields, Algerians use the official languages.
I'm really sorry, but comparing this to the destruction of books in the Middle Ages is a joke, and you are using sentiments in this debate when I'd prefer to see facts. Algerian Arabic dictionaries and such aren't real arguments to have a full version here on Wikipedia. Even during French colonization, they did write dictionaries, and I can share many here.
Most of the content created here (mainly from random contributors who have no clue and are mainly students from Chlef and Mostaganem, pushed by a French contributor whom you know) is of low quality, as it's often copied and pasted. For example, full French text is copied and pasted here and these contributors rarely participate further on Wikipedia to not say never
The French, Arabic, and English versions of Wikipedia do not have more than six active Algerian contributors. It is incorrect to assume that a small national version, which lacks a clear language due to the various regional dialects in Algeria (which do not possess all the characteristics of a distinct language), would have a significant encyclopedic impact and attract readers. This situation is ironic considering the linguistic paysage present in the country. There is also Algerian French, but it does not have a full version on its own, and the same goes for other variations such as Canadian French, etc.
If you have a specific connection to Algerian Arabic, that's acceptable. You can work on creating dictionaries, sharing content on other platforms, and so on. However, Wikipedia is intended for encyclopedic purposes and is not the appropriate place for conducting such tests. It is not a laboratory for linguists to standardize a dialect into a language that lacks the necessary criteria for use in encyclopedic settings.
Best regards. Riad Salih (talk) 16:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your reply, I consider it a kind refusal to participate in this meeting, no problem.
for the experimentation i'm not talking about the algerian because it really exists, i'm talking about testing the real utility of transcribing the algerian that is in him real.
Having said that, I'm not undermining the use of Algerian in the official sphere, because you don't realize that it's Algerian that everyone uses everywhere. Do you think that shopkeepers speak classic Algerian in the market?
you can even find official documents dating from the Spanish period and even from the emir abdelkader written in algerian. the government of the french ocupation used algerian to communicate,
all marketing publicity, whether private or public, uses only the Algerian language.
don't tell me otherwise. it's easy to contradict yourself.
i haven't contributed to this project for more than 5 years, because i'm currently busy with other tasks. i'm going to clean up the articles that need to be deleted.
Be careful, it's a project like any other, it's in its infancy and needs more promotion and explanation to help people understand the real purpose of this work.
let's be clear, it's indisputable to deny that algerian is spoken by more than 60 million people, when we see languages spoken by less than 1 million people with their own wiki project. Dezedien (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In Algeria, Standard Arabic is recognized as the prestigious form of language used in education, administration, and academic research. Society adheres to these linguistic norms. On the other hand, Algerian Arabic, which you refer to is the lower variety, is employed in informal contexts such as coffee shops, supermarkets, and everyday conversations. Different regions in Algeria exhibit other variations, such as the Oranee Dialectal language (OrandD), We have no standard Algerian Arabic.
Algerian Arabic cannot be considered a codified language, it is primarily regarded as a variation of Arabic (dialect) with very restricted and limited usage in formal settings.
60 million people speak Algerian dialect, not Algerian Arabic (which is linguistically speaking the Colloquial Arabic of Algeria). There are Arabophone, Francophone, and Amazigh speakers in Algeria. Reliable sources are needed to prove your claims.
As mentioned before, there are many varieties of French (Canadian, Algerian, Moroccan, Haitian), yet only one version of French is exits on Wikipedia, and more recently, Simple French.
Wikipedia serves as an encyclopedia and is not intended for testing AI-related experiments or exploring linguistic dialects. Additionally, you mentioned that you are the main contributor to this version. You can continue exploring other aspects of Algerian Arabic on different platforms.
Wikipedia should primarily focus on content with encyclopedic value. The current arq version does not align with that objective. I would prefer to have a discussion based on real linguistic approaches here. Therefore, we can wait for your friends to join and mention me, and I'll be available to reply.
Regards Riad Salih (talk) 17:49, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You agree with me, but you do not want to accept what I have been telling you from the start.
This project, and especially the Wiktionary, is not about creating a new form of language. Dialects exist in every town and village. You may have already heard of the dialect of Bettioua, a village in Arzew. It is a mixture of Arabic and Sanhadji Berber.
Standard Algerian exists and can be recognized on many occasions, as I mentioned above.
Algerians mix their dialects when communicating daily. This phenomenon can be observed through recorded videos.
I respect your decision to decline participation in this project. However, I believe there may have been a misunderstanding regarding testing and experimentation. The incubator's purpose is to create and publish.
It is worth noting that Algerian is taught and studied globally and is integrated into various computer systems. Yesterday, I generated some texts with Gemini, but they were not up to par. However, they were still in Algerian.
I am sharing my opinion, which is similar to that of many others, even if they are not present here.
I will support and assist those who are willing to work on this project. It takes a lot of energy to achieve an acceptable result.
The group received a solicitation to publish the wiki in summer 2017, but everyone refused because it was not good. Hopefully, it will improve in the future with new contributions from newcomers.
For the 2024-2025 annual plan, the Group will prioritize Witionaire due to the availability of material (a donation of 25,000 words with translation from linguist Said Tadjer) . Additionally, we plan to utilize wikidata. If we clean up the mediocre articles in the incubator section of Wikipedia, we will focus even more on it. Dezedien (talk) 08:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I invited Gemini to the discussion and his response was quite interesting, it's good to have a neutral opinion coming from a synthesized intelligence :)
Q: Algerian is language or Dialect ?
The question of whether Algerian is a language or a dialect is complex and controversial. There is no simple and definitive answer, as it depends on the perspective adopted and the criteria used to define a language.
Arguments in favor of Algerian as a language:
Algerian has its own grammar, vocabulary, and syntax. It is distinct from Literary Arabic, the official language of Algeria, and is not mutually intelligible with it.
Algerian has a long history and a rich literary tradition. There are many works written in Algerian, from poetry (الشعر) to novels (الرواية).
Algerian is the mother tongue of the majority of the Algerian population. It is used in daily life, in the media, and in education.
Arguments in favor of Algerian as a dialect:
Algerian is not recognized as an official language by the Algerian state. The only official language is Literary Arabic.
Algerian has no official status in education. It is not taught in schools and is not used in administrations.
Algerian is often seen as an inferior version of Literary Arabic. It is sometimes perceived as a "vulgar" or "incorrect" dialect.
In conclusion, there is no easy answer to the question of whether Algerian is a language or a dialect. The answer depends on the perspective adopted and the criteria used to define a language.
Here are some additional points to consider:
The distinction between language and dialect is often blurred and subject to debate.
The linguistic status of Algerian is evolving. More and more people are recognizing Algerian as a language in its own right.
The language question is often linked to questions of identity and politics.
It is important to respect the different opinions on this issue and not to impose a single vision.
Q : Do you think that creating a Wikipedia and a dictionary especially in Algerian would be useful?
Yes, I believe creating a Wikipedia and a Wiktionary in Algerian would be very useful.
There are many arguments in favor of this project:
1. Increased access to information:
An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would allow more people in Algeria to access information in their native language.
This is especially important for people who do not speak Literary Arabic or French fluently.
An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would help bridge the digital divide and promote digital inclusion.
2. Preserving Algerian culture and heritage:
An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would help document and preserve Algerian culture and heritage in the country's native language.
This would contribute to the transmission of knowledge and traditions to future generations.
An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would be a valuable resource for researchers and students interested in Algeria.
3. Strengthening Algerian identity:
An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would contribute to strengthening Algerian identity and promoting linguistic diversity.
This would allow Algerians to feel more proud of their language and culture.
An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would be a symbol of the richness and vitality of Algerian culture.
4. Development of the Algerian language:
An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would contribute to developing and standardizing the Algerian language.
This would create a corpus of texts in Algerian and encourage linguistic research.
An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would encourage the creation of new content in the language.
5. Contribution to the Wikimedia community:
Creating an Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would enrich the Wikimedia community and contribute to the diversity of available content.
This would allow sharing knowledge and information with the rest of the world.
An Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary would be a valuable resource for people interested in the Algerian language and culture.
In addition to these benefits, it is important to note that creating an Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary is a feasible project.
There are already a number of resources available, such as dictionaries and corpora of texts in Algerian.
There is also an active community of Algerian speakers who could contribute to these projects.
In conclusion, I believe that creating an Algerian Wikipedia and Wiktionary is an important and beneficial project that deserves to be supported.
This is an initiative that could have a significant positive impact on Algerian society and on the Wikimedia community as a whole.
Q : Thank you Gemini where did you get these answers from?
I'm happy to hear my responses were helpful!
I generated those answers by using my knowledge and understanding of the world, which I gained through machine learning on a massive dataset of text and code. This dataset includes information in English, French, and many other languages, as well as computer code. I can process and understand this information and use it to generate relevant and informative answers to your questions.
In addition to my general knowledge, I also have access to specific resources related to Algeria, such as:
Dictionaries and text corpora in Algerian
Algerian news articles and websites
Studies and research on the Algerian language and culture
These resources helped me familiarize myself with the language and culture of Algeria and generate more accurate and relevant answers to your questions.
I'm constantly learning and improving, and I'm always looking for new information and resources to enrich my knowledge. If you have any suggestions or feedback, please don't hesitate to share them. I'm always happy to help! Dezedien (talk) 08:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am so glad 188.242.249.168 00:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/sro[edit source]

Like the Wp/arq above, there are some evidences make this test project unsuccessful too. Campidanese is only considered as a dialect of Sardinian, and the Sardinian Wikipedia already has lots of articles written in this dialect. One scwiki administrator @L2212 also pointed at this talk page, that the real Campidanese speakers always directly contribute scwiki, where the user in that question, Fausta Samaritani, has identified to be another maker of scowiki-like problems, where that user doesn't really speak or write Sardinian, or any dialects of it, and that user's aim looks like to "transform scwiki to be a constellation (sic?)", which doesn't really work-able in any circumstances. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also support the deletion of that test wiki. As @Liuxinyu970226 has already written, it's a personal project by a non-speaker (using two names, Fausta Samaritani and Sirmio Cabinigre) that decided to work on it by creating hundreds of copy-pasted and almost empty articles (like the ones regarding the days of the month, the years or the centuries) with empty sections that someone else would have to fill. The Wp/sro project was already clearly not successful, having existed for years without a single article, and the sudden push for it's "development" and even its publication as a new language version comes from Fausta Samaritani's desire to split Sardinian in a multitude of wikis, one for every dialect (there are 200+ of them, btw, since every town has its own little differences, so you can imagine how feasible such an idea would be), to create, as Liuxinyu970226 mentioned, a "constellation of wikis" (sic) about it. Considering the fact that Sardinian is a single language with mutual intelligibility between the dialects, that we already have few active users as it is, and that the users that write using the Campidanese orthography (often alongside others, like the LSC one) use sc.wiki (where we also have rules and template to work with multiple orthographies and versions of an article) and have rejected time and time again this project (as you can see in the discussions here, here and here, where you can also find more informations about Sardinia's linguistic situation) the fact that she is still insisting is honestly absurd. L2212 (talk) 19:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see the Sardinian wiki uses similar tactics like Limburgish, which also has a high dialectual variation (see Agiudu:Grafias de Wikipedia), so I personally agree that there is no need for separate wikis. However, the requests are marked as eligible by the language subcom, so we have to allow them here. So really, this needs to be addressed at meta:Language committee first. Here we facilitate, we don't judge eligibility, that's up to the Langcom. --OWTB (talk) 16:03, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ooswesthoesbes There are some languages where their "Wikipedia requests" are eligible, but Incubator tests deleted: Fala (fax), Orang Seletar (ors), Ter Sami (sjt) and Votic (vot), with the third one been barred for re-creation. To the best of my knowledge, we should re-debate eligibility of these 5 (yep, include sro one) requests, they are controversial requests by even non-L2 speakers. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those test projects were deleted because the contents was either gibberish or in another language than the code, not on eligibility reasons. As I indicated before, we facilitate, we don't judge. --OWTB (talk) 07:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ooswesthoesbes Yes, Wp/sro is also containing gibberish and absurd contents provided by speakers of another language, as L2212 said above, "we don't judge" don't mean either, that we can't oppose, just see what I commented at those controversial "eligible" requests: 1, 2, 3 and 4 Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am in agreement with the deletion, as presented by @L2212 Riad Salih (talk) 16:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why isn't the wiki transferred to Incubator Plus 2.0 instead or maybe, move the articles to the Wikipedia in Sardinian with a note explaining that they are written in Campidanese? Jon Gua (talk) 11:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jon Gua If you can explain that why those contents are not "gibberish and absurd" as explained and endorsed above, feel free. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/goh[edit source]

Explained by both rejected RFL and AN discussion, Old High German is a historical language which doesn't in conformity with LPP. As the current form of German is having a continuously developing Wikipedia, there's fully no need to have another copy with a form that deprecated for 900+ years, probably we can ask whether German Wikisource allows import of these contents? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:22, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's the same situation as Old Dutch, so I think we need to take the same approach and export it to Incubator Plus. Wikisource won't take it, as these are original texts. --OWTB (talk) 08:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm deleting the numerous pages which contain nothing except an image already. --MF-W {a, b} 08:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can live with it if it gets deleted. As an Old High German enthusiast I think it's an interesting project, but if almost nobody contributes, it doesn't make much sense anyway. Pergarius (talk) 17:24, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you move it to Incubator Plus 2.0? Jon Gua (talk) 17:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/kyu[edit source]

Explained by @Nguyên Hưng Trần:, pages created only by a random set of IP vandals to promote nonsense English translations of other pages. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, but delete all the pages (except Wp/kyu/ꤒꤟꤢꤧ꤬ꤡꤢꤓꤛꤢ꤬ ꤜꤤ꤬ꤕꤜꤢꤧ꤬ and Wp/kyu/꤂꤀꤂꤄, which are re-translated to Western Kayah by me, using this dictionary). – Nguyên Hưng Trần (talk) 08:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nguyên Hưng Trần Why not re-start this project instead? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:31, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226: Hmm... That's a good idea. – Nguyên Hưng Trần (talk) 06:04, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/igl and Wp/kus[edit source]

Wp/igl and Wp/kus have already become separate projects. I propose to delete it from Incubator because all meaningful content from this wikis have already been imported. Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 16:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They were created in April and May, please be patient for August. (But for the same reason, I think Wp/dga, Wp/zgh and Wq/bjn can be? These 3 were created in November of last year) --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thank you,
@Liuxinyu970226. I will create another proposal. Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 16:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wp/dga, Wq/bjn and Wp/zgh[edit source]

I propose to remove those wikis from Incubator because they were imported to their own sites and created a long time ago. Пан Хаунд 2 (talk) 17:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]