Category talk:Incubator:Nahuatl languages

From Wikimedia Incubator

Category and content pages[edit source]

@Marrovi: I reverted myself on the category page—that can legitimately stay where it was. However, the content page Nahuatl languages/List of words cannot go in Incubator space. It has to be in mainspace. For now, leave the actual text in one place, Wp/nch (because it is the most active) and have redirects from the rest. If one of these gets approved, make sure there is a duplicate in that text before export. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:49, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Steve.--Marrovi (talk) 19:52, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Marrovi: Also—and understanding that you are banned from there, and I DO NOT want a discussion of the reasons for it here—what language exists in the project Nahuatl Wikipedia? StevenJ81 (talk) 19:52, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is necessary to present a global vision of Nahuatl with its variants, to make known that Nahuatl is not a normed language as Spanish or English. Nahuatl is a macrolanguage that encompasses many Nahuatl languages, for logically Huiquipedia was a failure to think that this is a unified or standardized language, and has been borrowed to exclude the knowledge of native speakers like Tepoxteco, Teotlalilli or Elesban Landeros that some They edited there, which is why they speak different variants of Nahuatl, there are differences of writing and grammar in their way of speaking and writing; Many people in Wikipedia were mistakenly made to believe that this language was unique, but they have not been told about the Nahuatl languages ​​alive and are in the process of disappearing, which are a wealth of linguistic diversity for the Nahuatl macrolanguage. There is such a linguistic unity.

The articles of Huiquipedia are not a specific language, the articles are an incomprehensible jumble of Nahuatl living languages ​​with a dead language (Classical Nahuatl) edited with a single spelling to simulate that the Nahuatl is unified in the eyes of the world, but those articles do not Are understood by the native speakers of the Nahuatl languages, therefore, it is not useful for Huiquipedia for a native speaker of Nahuatl. Now with the encubadora we have the opportunity to remedy the damage and invite the native speakers to edit in their variant, as well as invite anyone who is interested in Nahuatl languages ​​without deception and without excluding behaviors by non-native speakers such as happened in Huiquipedia.--Marrovi (talk) 20:24, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To learn to speak Nahuatl it is necessary to know all variants or languages Nahuatl, to speak a single variant is difficult to understand the real vision of Nahuatl speakers, lends itself to linguistic manipulations that give advantage to mestizos or non-native speakers over the native speakers. We can not neglect the new contributions of important researchers on the Nahuatl languages in a specific way without falling into the deception of an unified language.--Marrovi (talk) 20:35, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Marrovi: Fine, but just be cautious. You can legitimately create and edit projects like Wp/nch and Wp/ppl and try to have them approved in their own right. I wouldn't take on four at a time, though. And don't start picking fights about nah:. Just work on your own project based on its own inherent value. My guess is that if you try to pick a fight about nah: you will lose, and it won't do you or the people you are presumably supporting any good. Understand? StevenJ81 (talk) 20:35, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not to be missed, because I share the same vision of native speakers and these projects are designed to invite them to participate without exclusion as has happened, I have enough time working with Iván Martínez to make this possible, but unfortunately few native speakers of Indigenous languages in Mexico are interested in using Wikipedia, and those who have done so have been excluded or ignored, which has caused them disappointment as to how things work in Huiquipedia, now opens up a much more thoughtful opportunity for Wikipedia to be attractive to native speakers of American Native languages. That's why it's better to take different paths and always think about native speakers and their way of seeing the world.--Marrovi (talk) 20:46, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is edited by no native Nahuatl speaker nah:Gustavo Adolfo Becquer; this article is edited by a native Nahuatl speaker nah:Tepozteco, the vision on editions is different; both are good articles but no union between user, is difficult a heathly coexistence between Mexicans, academics and Native speakers. I am a Tepoxteco's friend (Victoriano), in this moment only he is a Native speaker in Huiquipedia and we talking about this situation. Their is a unit between native speakers of Nahuatl languages, but there isn't spelling and semantic connection in the languages, so it is a better option to work on several projects, I have also learned some variants with the help of my friends native speakers.--Marrovi (talk) 21:14, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nahuatl languages[edit source]

Ethnologue and INALI have got diferent catalog for to name a Nahuatl languages, pro example; Central Nahuatl (nhn) and Tlaxcala Nahuatl languages; others, High Plateau Central Nahuatl language but no cataloged by Ethnologue with ISO code.--Marrovi (talk) 21:21, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Marrovi: Pardon, but how do I understand "Ranking" and "Metawiki" columns in your list? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:17, 19 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Marrovi: ^^ Please do not avoid my question here by just doing "thank", both columns are still confusing to me. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:14, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi What list my friend?--Marrovi (talk) 03:17, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ehh no longer having problem, as you decided to remove both fields ([1]). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Questions for Marrovi[edit source]

@Marrovi: User:Akapochtli put the following comment on my talk page on Tuesday 13 March:

Dear friend: Really, really I don't know what I would think about this situation, if we have one guy who may do whatever he wants, how has been possible that we allow him to make many things our face? Is there a limit?

I let myself make a revision and I tell you that I had found. Obviously you know that checking his changes is too hard.

Again, copy-paste.[2][3][4][5][6] You can see this page on Huiquipedia-Ocelotl with a lot mistakes and thus was copied and pasted on Incubator-Ocelotl-nhn.

We can see other one on Huiquipedia-Muse and the same words (with other spelling) on Incubator-Muse-nch.

Third evidence, from Huiquipedia he copied Tlapalli and put on Incubator under code nch, when I saw it I tried to improve it and in addition I added some references, one kind of thing that he didn't do, so recently he copied and pasted again but now under code nhn.

So, how would the same words be able to talk diferences languages? It is a hoax!

If we have seven thousand pages on Huiquipedia, then he may copy all! Actually this happening, bit by bit he's doing that. We can also check his changelist and see how he doesn't choose where to put a certain text; first he puts like nch pattern, then like nhn pattern, late like nci and finally he puts again nhn.

One more thing, I don't understand what is the point if we have an open Huiquipedia where people write with clasical and central nahuatl, why are there two proyect on Incubator too?

At the end of the day, I don't know what we must do, really I don't wish to discuss with him anymore and I don't want to participate in any order action against him; despite of all I'm the only one who can see and understand what happening here, so I'm afraid I won't be quiet, if we watch something wrong we have the obligation to tell it, we must.

He will never stop, certainly his contributions on Ladino-Wikipedia will be his better success, I don't have any objection there, but on Incubator his actions are costumes, he tries to hoax us, really he isn't able to speak nahuatl neither for make right wiki-pages, not at all.

This issue I put on your hands... I don't want to argue anymore, really I don't. --Akapochtli (talk) 01:26, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I've looked into this further, and I have some questions I need to ask you. I establish the following rules for your answers:

  1. Do not start accusing that user of anything. The questions here are about what is happening on Incubator. The disagreements you have had elsewhere are not something I am willing to reopen here.
  2. Do not write a whole wall of information. Answer each question with one or two sentences.

OK, those are the rules. Here are my questions:

Question 1. How many pages (approximately) have you copied from Huiquipedia to Incubator? Let me point out to you that ...
  • You are allowed to copy.
  • When you copy, you must add attribution for the source. You have to say where you copied things from. If you did not do that, you are in violation of copyright under CC-BY-SA 3.0 and GFDL. And copyright violation can result in a block.
Question 2. I note from the discussion we had at m:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Nahuatl Wikipedia 2 that the question of just what language(s) the Nahuatl Wikipedia is written in is not so clear. But it does seem pretty clear that Classical Nahuatl (nci) is certainly a language used in that project. So I do not see why we would have a project Wp/nci. How do you justify that?
The case around Central Nahuatl (nhn) is a little less clear, but on the whole I also wonder why we have a project Wp/nhn. Please explain that, as well. (Remember: two sentences, not a whole essay.)
Question 3. If so many pages you copy of Nahuatl Wikipedia to different tests here are identical, then why do we need multiple tests here? Recall that LangCom is not willing to approve tests when the language is not noticeably different from that of an existing test. Please explain.

Please answer these questions. Thank you. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:34, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if I am OK to join such discussions or not, but at least my opinion is, whether you think that's fair or not, support splitting the de facto nahwiki, here are the reasons:

  1. In general, ISO 639-2/5 nah is a collection of Nahuatl languages, neither a single "Nahuatl language" (which should just have a single Wikipedia for it), nor a Nahuatl macrolanguage (which may be suitable to combine to one or two Wikipedias, or should be created under member languages of them), therefore a Wikipedia in the collection case give us nonsense, that contains only confusions, just image: if Tagalog Wikipedia was created using ISO 639-2/5 phi to just match the legal name "Fillipino" (which Wp/fil even matches that), then it gives confusing between Tagalog and Asi, Central Bikol, Cebuano, Hiligaynon, Ilocano, Kapampangan, Kinaray-a, Pangasinan, Rinconada Bikol, Waray, and Yami (Tao) (which is used in Taiwan not Philippine) contents, which I kindly sure that they are angry with phi code;
  2. Due to the collection case, its contents also can't be considered as Creole, Patois and/or Pidgin, its languages used are cross-fired, therefore remember that our languages policy mentions that The Wikimedia Foundation does not seek to develop new linguistic entities, if you can't believe that this is Classical Nahuatl (nci), better not to first rename URL, but try to export-import the non-nci contents (this is also a good way to distinguish conducts between Marrovi and you) to our Incubator (because I don't think that doing same things as Armenian has any benefits in the complex South American cases);
  3. By looking the main page editions: nah:Achto Quiyahuatl is soft-redirected to Wp/nhn, nah:Calīxatl is maintained by your nahwiki sysops, and nah:Achkàuhìxtlapalli was maintained by Marrovi (the main problem of this section), except those three, all other editions are copy-pasted from the history editions of nah:Calīxatl by IP users, although I don't know who are using those IP addresses, I would say that gives a black hole: there's some bureaucratic issues that are censoring the fact that they (the actual living different Nahuatl users) wanna separate wikis (or at least doing same way the Romansh Wikipedia does, their community agrees Puter, Sursilvan, Grischun, Surmiran, Sutsilvan and Vallader dialects, their same-topic articles are semi-synced by either bots or logging users, and like Ladino they also have navigation templates for those cases);
  4. The Catanalysis tool told me that (just visit "Check test wiki activity" links of every affected project portal pages to verify), Marrovi is not the only one, there are also those users that are putting their endeavors to get their independent, separated and contestable wikis: User:Andrijko Z., User:Antonio arana, User:A R King, User:Carcamoh, User:Docum, User:DxD, User:Fluence, User:Garysqo, User:Gksrnrdls, User:Hydriz, User:Jnunez69, User:Jorge2888 and User:Romaine. Thus I'd love to say, that combing those languages even follow Ladino/Romansh resolution is not good, if those are combineable, then we should only have a Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, no need to allow Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin Wikipedias (where in fact their benefits are two-two differents).

Feel free to "blame" that what I'm lying above. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:54, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Liuxinyu970226: I'm afraid you're missing. First, we don't talk about if we must support splitting or not, it is necessary and one day will happen, successfully.
The main focus is the duplication of contents, wrong actions and welling of all proyect.
So, you must know that was a big mistake to use nah code for to name the Huiquipedia, never was changed for nhn, maybe the more useful. The main idea had been mix with words from classical nahuatl (nci), and for a time it worked. Actually, the nci only few persons use it. Inside Huiquipedia the users handled a mixed system between nhn/nci.
The other big issue is the lack native speakers, there and here. Our user blamed us when the reality was and is too different. He wanted to close one when right here have the same problem, nobody are working here, just him.
I'm afraid you've misunderstand about the users too, they aren't active: Fluence is inactive since 2010; Andrijko since 2012; idem Alan R King... Do you really checked the list?
My deeper concern is... if we're wanting findings... Why doesn't he respond us? Why does he prefer to make 500 changes in several and all day in other place? --Akapochtli (talk) 05:34, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226, Ooswesthoesbes, Akapochtli, Marrovi: My concerns are as follows:
  1. Marrovi hasn't responded here, neither to the general discussion nor to the points about whether proper attribution protocols were followed here.
  2. Functionally, Huiquipedia is in Classical Nahuatl, Central Nahuatl, or both. It should be coded as nhn or nci, not nah, to be sure. Leaving that aside as a technical point, it is serving as a project in one or both of those languages. So the need for test projects here is unclear; they may be duplicative. So let's resolve that issue. It could be that content in one language or the other should be exported to Incubator; if so, let's do that.
  3. Whether or not these should be considered languages or dialects is not really my issue, either. They have language codes. Still, if the languages are not functionally different (especially in writing), LangCom can choose to decide that there should not be a project for each and every one of them. (Look at the recent discussion on Montenegrin.)
  4. More to the point, if the languages are different, why are copied versions of the pages the same? And we understand that if someone copies Wp/qaa/Test, to Wp/qab/Test, then at least for a short time the two pages will be identical. But soon thereafter, if qab is a different language from qaa, then the second version of the page should change. It doesn't look like that is always happening here.
Those are things I'd like to see addressed. Calling also User:Maor X, whom I hoped would have started a discussion on related issues on Meta after the request to close nahwiki was closed unsuccessfully. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:06, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's better to temporarily freeze the affected test projects until these issues are resolved. --OWTB (talk) 17:15, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, OWTB: I just saw that the user Marrovi continues editing non stop in the projects...
@StevenJ81: I have the statistics of his contributions, in advance if you want, I may put it. --Akapochtli (talk) 01:30, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User:Marrovi is blocked for 72 hours. If he writes a short response on his talk page I will copy it here. If he doesn't, the ban will become an indef. StevenJ81 (talk) 09:16, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good morning, if they need to ask me a question, they can write me directly on my discussion page, I can respond immediately because I do not follow this page.--Marrovi (talk) 13:30, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Question 1.

¿I can delete all copy information or need only references about Huiquipedia?. Other user copied here some articles about Huiquipedia as [7] [8], his name is Fluence, Muses is his favorite band, but the ortography no Central Nahuatl, inside his articles only change ortography from Huastec Nahuatl with a copy from Huiquipedia.--Marrovi (talk) 13:39, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Question 2.

Fotografía de los textos, del libro, Kalmanaltlajtolme Xilitlan, publicado en 2016, en San Luis Potosí. Huastec Nahuatl language.

Fotografía de los textos, del libro, La lengua náhuatl para los niños de hoy, publicado en 2010. Central Nahuatl language.

Central Huastec Nahuatl is other language, may be East Huastec Nahuatl and West Huastec Nahuatl are almost the same language. In Veracruz state, some villages there are a diferent ortography, (East Huastec Nahuatl) nawatlajtoli, tsotso, wakax, alaxos, palach; but almost all the towns of the Huasteca is the same ortography (West Huastec Nahuatl and Central Huastec Nahuatl) nauatlajtoli, tsotso, uakax, lalaxtli, palach.--Marrovi (talk) 13:51, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Central Huastec Nahuatl is the same to nahuatl de la huasteca hidalguense Central Huastec Nahuatl and Research of Dr. Anuschka van'Hoof in Huastec Nahuatl.

Central nahuatl or Plateau Nahuatl is a life language in Puebla Valley, Mexico Valley and Volcanoes, it's the same territory from Classical Nahuatl, Central Nahuatl is a language in danger of disappearing. Classical Nahuatl is dead language, now no Native speakers, it's similar to Ancien Greek, Latin or Classical Chinese.--Marrovi (talk) 13:59, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Central Nahuatl is diferent to Huastec Nahuatl Central Nahuatl of Cholula.

Classical Nahuatl is a dead language spoken in Aztec Empire and Mexico-Tenochtitlan during the Spanish conquest. Many religious people and New Spanish people wrote in Classical Nahuatl language.

This dictionary is wrotten in Classical Nahuatl Dictionaire de la langue Náhuatl Classique.

Question 3.

Diferences between nahua languages.--Marrovi (talk) 14:03, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fauna[edit source]

English Classical Nahuatl Huastec Nahuatl Central Nahuatl Pipil Orizaba Nahuatl
Bird Tōtōtl Tototl Tototl Tutut Tototl
Coyote Coyōtl Koyochichi Coyochichi Kuyut Koyochichi
Deer Māzatl Masatl Mazatl Masat Masatl
Fish Michin Michi Michin Michin Michin
Grasshopper Chapōlin Chapoli Chapolin Chapulin Chapulin
Man Tlācatl Tlakatl Tlacatl Takat Tlakatl
Rabbit Tōchtli Tochi Tochtli Tuchti Toxtli
Spider Tōcatl Tokatl Tocatl Tukat Tokatl
Turkey bird Huehxōlōtl Palach Huehxolotl Chumpipi Wexolotl

Flora[edit source]

English Classical Nahuatl Huastec Nahuatl Central Nahuatl Pipil Orizaba Nahuatl
Flower Xōchitl Xochitl Xochitl Suchit Xochitl
Orange Naranjaxocotl Lalax Lalaxtli Lala Alaxox

Geography[edit source]

English Classical Nahuatl Huastec Nahuatl Central Nahuatl Pipil Orizaba Nahuatl
Fire Tletl Tlitl Tletl Tet Tletl
Forest Cuauhtlah Kuaujtlaj Cuauhtlahtli Kuajkuajta Kwauhtlah
Land Tlālli Tlali Tlalli Tal Tlalli
Sun Tōnatiuh Tonati Tonatih Tunal Tonatih
Water Ātl Atl Atl At Atl
Wind Ehēcatl Ajakatl Ehcatl Ekat Ehkatl

Numbers[edit source]

English Classical Nahuatl Huastec Nahuatl Central Nahuatl Pipil Orizaba Nahuatl
One Se Ce Se Se
Two Ōme Ome Ome Ume Ome
Three Yēi Yeyi Yei Yei Yeyi
Four Nāhui Naui Nahui Nawi Nawi
Five Mācuīlli Makuili Macuilli Makwil Makwilli

No, Marrovi[edit source]

No, @Marrovi:

This issue is not resolved. You should be clever enough to understand that your answers cause precautionary measures. I think the nci and nhn projects are unnecessary here and you only use them to destroy the Huiquipedia. Below I will put my statement. The administrators will decide what to do, meanwhile you must stop on this projects. --Akapochtli (talk) 16:43, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If Huiquipedia, has an ISO code for a macro language (nah), has many errors in the articles, has many words invented and is not a platform that can be understood by native speakers or students of Nahuatl languages. Why do you want to keep Huiquipedia?. Today we all know that Huiquipedia is a failed project that has non utility, until now only the articles wrotten of nah:User:Tepoxteco have got an understandable logic for native speakers of Nahuatl languages and for students.--Marrovi (talk) 03:04, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Akapochtli, it has been a year since the blockade that you have made me, you blamed me for many things and among them was that I was the guilty of the wrong functioning of Huiquipedia. The fact is that I no longer edit Huiquipedia, the few native speakers such as Teotlailli and Tepoxteco also do not edit or edit very little because they were not aware of Huiquipedia. Things are just as bad edited and users like Cuaitl or Ricardo (who are not native speakers and you defend them) edit with many invented words that are not understood.

You have the control of Huiquipedia, but you can not deceive people that Huiquipedia articles are still no good articles or garbage, and you refuse to have corrections, clarifications and points of view made about them. Nahuatl languages ​​and that's why you attack us so much Teotlalilli as Tepoxteco and me, that we are dangerous; You know that we are dangerous because if we know the Nahuatl languages ​​and your desire to close the way or that things are as they are because you do not want to improve anything and those who ignore about Nahuatl languages, you want to convince them based on my mistakes or that I commit violations. I propose to create new platforms for the learning of Nahuatl languages ​​and invite native speakers to edit again, you are a good Nahuatl student, you can with me to edit articles with better editing for Nahuatl language students.--Marrovi (talk) 03:37, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why is everything always rape and disobedience for you? Why do you always want to judge and feel power over others? Why do not you recognize the greatness of others? If Huiquipedia is wrong it is because there is no one who dares to review and conciliate with you; Now that people know that the Nahuatl language does not exist, but that there are several Nahuatl languages, you do not want to accept that there has been a great evolution among Nahua communities and that there are living languages ​​that are not identical to classical Nahuatl.
You want to close the Incubator projects and do not want the copied articles to be corrected because you would lose credibility in Huiquipedia. If you continue in that position that everything stays the same and does not show the advances of the Nahuatl languages, that will be taken as a much bigger deception which you can not cover and the people who support it will feel more disappointment.
It is not about playing to be perfect, no Wikipedia article is perfect because they are not edited by doctors, great researchers, or academics, so the rigor of treating people badly creates severe damage and problems, manipulation media is not the success of the work, neither is selfishness, the real success is the help between users but it is not, the help to plot against the editors, that generates greater conflicts, because nobody is anyone's judge.--Marrovi (talk) 04:41, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Marrovi, you're completly wrong. I'm sorry but is truth. --Akapochtli (talk) 10:41, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Next Stage[edit source]

Dear fellows @StevenJ81, Liuxinyu970226, Ooswesthoesbes: You could been agreeing with me that his answers and explanations don't justify his work and decisions about Incubator projects. The facts show me without a doubt:

1. For him Huiquipedia was a great project, while he participated.
2. He was expelled from Huiquipedia, then the portal became a failure.
3. He tried to close Huiquipedia, he failed. (But right now still he's triying!)
4. The intention to close the portal was to restart the project from Incubator under his tutelage and his own rules, protecting himself with the new regulations to do things in his own way.

He is damaging Huiquipedia by spreading that it is a failure through social networks and media, therefore it also damages Wikimedia Foundation, he wants to create his own Huiquipedia, and believe me, nobody or anything can avoid it, it is impossible, I discovered it in the middle of the request for global ban even if he is expelled from the outside either by evading with anonymous IPs, with puppets or from other sites in the network, he will do so. I have said it and once again I repeat it: he will never stop.

I don't see (in fact I think anyone) the indigenous community defending any position, we only see a user who doesn't accept guidelines, advices, corrections, who continually uses natives as a shield and thus he keeps doing what and when he wants. One of the objectives when I expelled him from Huiquipedia was for everyone can see that the activity there was a smokescreen, he proclaimed himself "the biggest contributor" "who worked the most", there were 300 to 400 editions dayly, 90 % was from him; And that is what has to be corrected! but the reality is that everything was an idle work, we only found stubs, bad wording and yes, many words invented and imposed but by the same user expelled, that's why I started the review process and deleted two years ago and due to the impressive number of "editions" of the user I have not finished yet, it will take me a lot more time. The texts he wants to correct are those he made himself, those he copied and pasted, about the presidents of Mexico, the numbers, the cities and municipalities of Mexico and the other countries; All are his writings! If after 12 years he hasn't been able to correct and finish a single article; How long will it take him to reach his goal?

Do we want to happen the same in Incubator? On the other hand the user is unable to understand the objective of the project, to be an activist is too different from to be a wikiuser and he is an activist. At this time I wonder if he is a vehement contributor and a professional in the Nahuatl language, he has worked in Incubator for ten years; Why is there not a single article finished? One that we can say: this already has all the necessary information and is complete.

I will insist on his enormous contradiction, he has said always the natives must be themselves who write the texts in their own language, not a self proclaimed representative, he should be congruent with all his long speech and he should not try to impose his point of view. --Akapochtli (talk) 10:34, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tepoxteco is editing and he is giving me support, he did it recently [9], it's a lie that I put my rules, that if you do it because something does not seem to you in an immediate way you block, it's an abuse of your part because Many people do not know Nahuatl, it even seems that you like people here to ignore the Nahuatl language, because it is more than teaching, you just back on mistakes, only you know why you want to have Huiquipedia open and at the same time control it, and you also know that is full of errors that I have not edited and if they have edited other users like Cuatl or Ricardo, but you do not want to mention it because your goal is only to attack me and make others believe I am the cause of all the evils.

You know that native speakers are not aware of Huiquipedia, and there are many things that they no longer trust in projects like this, at the time they manifested themselves and despite that they made fun of their participation as the case of Teotlalilli and Tepoxteco and he states that you are not what you say you are, that you have deceived many people that you are very knowledgeable, he told me that it is a lie to argue that the word istak is not used in the Huasteca, istak is so used as chipauak and bothof them are an understanding within the same context.

I just want you to be selfish, and to get to work with us, Tepoxteco and me, and also invite other new users to improve everything else that the Nahuatl languages have to do, because you do not seem to want the languages live have your space and you close only to a dead language like classic Nahuatl where you have enough domain, that under that argument you try to make personal conjectures to create your comfort state.--Marrovi (talk) 13:56, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One little view[edit source]

We can see on his last editions the creation of "Tototl", he said he want to correct a bad pages with "invented words", indeed it is, we can find quickly two words, tlacatototl (first the Ostrich later the Greater rhea) wich word we can't find anywhere (any scholarship book), this was invented alike michpatlani (Fliying fish).

But the reality is that he wrote  Tototl on Huiquipedia since 2010 and he invented the words for ostrich and fliying fish there, so What really does he want to fix?

Almost all the copied pages are his! What will be his new argument? --Akapochtli (talk) 10:34, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Marrovi: How dare you say that Huiquipedia is a failure project when has more than 10,000 visits per month. You must try a little hard, Huiquipedia of course is useful. --Akapochtli (talk) 11:41, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In wikipedia is posible to make changes if you have got a mistake.--Marrovi (talk) 13:21, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry it's taken me quite so long to answer. I have some time pressures IRL at the moment.
Personally, I think User:Marrovi is well-intended. In working with him on the Judeo-Spanish Wikipedia, I have found that he is (eventually) willing to listen, at least to me. He has worked hard to try to learn written Judeo-Spanish, and while it is not perfect by any means, it has improved a lot over time. For all I know, he is even objectively correct on some of the Nahuatl issues.
Still, at the end of the day, I think the time has come to end his participation here. I have been very patient with him over time, and I've wanted him to succeed. Certainly on ladwiki, I don't have many other contributors; I hate to see that end. And he is by far the largest contributor to Nahuatl projects here. So, in the same way, I hate to see that end.
But there are some things that Marrovi has just never been able to understand, even after all these years. I will try to summarize very briefly here:
  1. WMF projects are collaborative projects. Participants must be able to work with fellow contributors. Being objectively correct about something is, frankly, not enough. One needs to be able to work with others to come to a happy meeting place.
  2. In a similar way, just because Marrovi feels he is objectively correct about something does not mean that he is; at the very least, there may be other correct ways to look at problems. I have had great difficulty getting him to see this most of the time. I have seen him correct people on ladwiki whom I have every reason to believe were fluent speakers, which he is not.
    Considering Huiquipedia, the appropriate thing to do would have been to try to persuade the rest of the community to his point of view. Instead, he got himself banned. And Incubator will not willingly host competitive projects just because Marrovi doesn't like the current one. It would be nice if that community would be willing to let him back in, to see if he could contribute productively. But I doubt the community would be willing, and I can hardly blame it.
  3. It is true that in collaborative projects like these, it is ok to make some mistakes (or some educated guesses), in the hope that someone can come along and improve upon them. But what is not acceptable is to simply copy-and-paste repetitively, figuring that at the end of the day someone else will come along and fix one's messes.
  4. On the projects that Marrovi currently works on, there are relatively few people around who are available to fix such messes. I'm actually pretty sure that on ladwiki, some people have not stayed around because I begged them to help me deal with repairs to Marrovi's work. I'd rather not have to ask others to help me fix things; I'd rather they be able to contribute what they want to contribute. Many of the smaller projects Marrovi worked on looked fairly embarrassing after he worked on them, and it's taken a long time to fix them. And we simply no longer have time and resources to do that on Incubator.
  5. As I said, eventually Marrovi is usually willing to listen. But that's rarely true the first time. When I mentioned the technical copyright violation issue above, his response was that he could rewrite things so that they weren't copied. But that's not what I said, and that's not what I suggested. The copying was OK—what was necessary was attribution. But he just didn't listen. Maybe that was a language issue; I don't know.
  6. Finally, every time Marrovi feels he needs to defend himself, he creates an enormous wall of information to do so. This, again, is a strain on time and resources. If you can defend yourself, you should be able to do that fairly briefly. Adding enormous quantities of written "evidence" to the discussion (as above), especially when it's not sourced, is just a time and energy sink.
    Perhaps Marrovi would say, "I'm entitled to bring what evidence I have, even if it is long." But the rest of us are all volunteers, and we're equally entitled to say "We don't have the time and energy to deal with that, when you're already making things difficult."
I think I would propose a one-year block here. That would allow things to settle down, and would let Marrovi look for other creative outlets for this work. (Marrovi, if you want to take some of this content over to Incubator Plus on Wikia, where the rules are less strict, I would help you facilitate that.)
That is my opinion. Others are welcome to reply. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:19, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@StevenJ81: I support your decision. I would like to add a global view and rethinking later. At this moment I'm trying to arrange my ideas about main points. Regards. --Akapochtli (talk) 11:44, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If there is another platform to help the Nahuatl languages, I do not have any impediment to open other portals, I have broad support from native speakers, if Incubator does not work, it is not necessary to waste time here, I prefer other spaces that allow a better knowledge of the Nahua languages.

I and the native speakers are also convinced that Wikipedia is not a platform for indigenous peoples, here they will never be able to find spaces, there is a lot of racism and discrimination against indigenous people. It's something that they experienced in Wikipedia, that's not what I say, they say it themselves.

Thank you for listening to me Steven, I am in charge of talking with the indigenous communities and the Academy of writers of indigenous languages ​​of Mexico, that wikipedia is not a space for them, nor are the projects in indigenous languages ​​viable because you have no guarantees for them nor can there be any control on the part of the administrators, since there is a great ignorance about the indigenous languages. I understand that there are people who have enthusiasm to learn languages ​​of Americas, but still they are many years of study and unfortunately you do not get anything, they are all lost wars.

I spoke with many users in different languages ​​about the American languages, they always answered me many times that Wikipedia is not a space for indigenous peoples, they told me that I am wasting my time trying to convince the administration to have wikipedias of languages ​​of Mexico or from another American country.

Huiquipedia will always be a failure and I do not say it because I no longer edit, simply and simply because it is not edited by people who speak Nahuatl as a mother, the articles published there are not of interest to the Nahuas and nothing is of Nahuatl classic or Nahuatl languages ​​alive, only those who have dared to study Nahuatl as I know the amount of nonsense written there, other people who have also noticed the amount of words invented by mestizos are the users: User:Maunus and User: Node ue. Steven, if you think it is beautifully written in Huiquipedia in Nahuatl, then you have been teased by the fact that you do not speak Nahuatl languages ​​and anyone can take advantage of you because you do not speak Nahuatl; and I am not blaming Francisco (Akapochtli) for anything or that he is the culprit, it was a snowball that he had no control over and that got out of hand to all of you. Believe that without my everything is going to improve is naive, Huiquipedia went out of control and it is shameful to read articles with invented words or texts never understood that pretend to be Nahuatl language.

I think the blockade is a mockery for me, you better tell me you do not want it to be edited and I understand it very well, I do not have to be in a place where I'm not wanted, I'm already tired and I do not have the intension to continue losing my valuable time, I better take it to write my own books and be next to serious universities like UNAM, Colegio de México, University of Warsaw, there where they have a space all the people that we are interested in the indigenous languages ​​of Mexico.--Marrovi (talk) 00:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Game over[edit source]

Up to this moment Akapochtli is the only user who does not want me to return to Huiquipedia because he himself made the decision to block me, by logic I will never return to edit there because it is the decision making in Huiquipedia. Furthermore, there is no academic body or community that knows the Nahuatl languages ​​that can detect errors, invented words, or bad writing, there is no user in Huiquipedia that can tell Akapochtli that he made an error or to another user, which is a difference to Ladwiki because in Ladino if there is a speaker who has the Judeo-Spanish language as his mother language, it's called Universalife and I advise him.

Huiquipedia is not a democratic space nor is there mutual help and everyone edits about what they want without relation to the Nahuas and that is well known by Steven, but it is not convenient for others to find out, there in Huiquipedia, if you contradict Akapochtli you are expelled by himself, if indeed it were true that there are excellent articles, I would not have to attack Huiquipedia, huvo native speakers and these were attacked and rejected by Akapochtli himself. I was the main editor of many great articles and now it turns out that I violated the copyright for copying in Incubator the articles that I edited in Huiquipedia. Whoever believes that in huiquipedia you can read good articles, is wrong, the absence of native speakers is an obvious sign of bad articles, meztizo is not synonymous with a Nahuatl speaker, it has taken me more than 10 years of my life to learn Nahua languages.

I spoke with representatives of indigenous languages ​​a moment ago and came to the same conclusion, Wikipedia is not a space for indigenous languages, it is not profitable for wikipedia to deal with indigenous people; Mapuche friends from Chile, friends from Guatemala and from the Mixtec, Otomi and Nahuatl communities of Mexico, we discussed it a few hours ago and we are already convinced that it is to waste time on Wikipedia and to listen to deaf ears that only look after their personal interests and that Discreet way they are being discriminatory and also play with people; the values ​​and rules of Wikipedia administrators are not rules and their ancestral values ​​of indigenous peoples; they observe that Wikipedians are not a community, they only come together to attack each other and abuse power.

For the reasons that I spoke a few hours ago with true indigenous friends of the continent, I retire from Incubator and I will not continue editing because my only interest here was to look for spaces for indigenous languages, I do not need a one year blockade or a blockade to always, I am a man of my word, my ancestral values (Crypto-Jews) do not allow me to lend myself to games and humiliations, I am a worthy man and my word is true. I apologize if I offended someone. Thank you, good bye.--Marrovi (talk) 07:08, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First, I do think you're a worthy man. Never think otherwise.
Second, "Wikipedia is not a space for indigenous languages"? I think that speakers of indigenous languages of Canada, for example, would not agree with you; they've been making a lot of progress here.
That said, the very argument above shows that you are not understanding the problem. Understand that once Passover has passed, I am going to hold Akapochtli's feet to the fire to try to get Huiquipedia cleaned up. Still, I'm sure that no one over there is opposed to native speakers coming and trying to contribute. And I'm very happy to support people coming here to work on Nahuatl test projects here, too. But you have not been an effective advocate. You may well get to the right result in the end, and I don't even doubt you know more about Nahuatl languages than most others. But there's a process here, too, and managing you through the process—correcting the messes you make on the way to the right result—just takes enormously too much time and effort. And consider: you complain that people do not understand and use Nahuatl languages correctly—yet you are guilty of the same thing on other projects (ladwiki, but others, too).
I believe that speakers of Nahuatl languages will actually fare better here without your involvement—even if the work goes more slowly. And I would strongly encourage them to work with Wikimedia México to get support for their work.
So, with regret, I accept your retirement here. I wish you fair winds and following seas. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:40, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The Nahuatl elite has seen this discussion, they know about this because I was an observer for them, they are friends of mine and two of them suffered rejection by Akapochtli, since the way they write their living languages ​​is not accepted. We at our universities as UNAM, Colegio de México, etc. We are measuring the behavior and values ​​of Wikipedians to be able to talk with teachers and students of indigenous languages ​​and not expose them to humiliations or profanity. Although I have some great friends in Wikimedia Mexico, the Spanish speakers do not have an equal relationship with the indigenous speakers of my country; each group has its own path; Several work projects were attempted between Wikimedia Mexico with native speakers but they also failed.
In a congress of indigenous communities in Chile in 2015, the Mapuches already explained that wikipedia is not a space for them or for indigenous peoples, they do not share the same values ​​and Wikimedia Chile is not an indigenous community, it is a community of Spanish speakers and they are not Spanish speaking, they tried to open a Mapuche wiki in incubator but they were also ignored and disappointed in the project, that's why it is already inactive and acts as garbage now. In 2014 at the University of Warsaw, also indigenous people from Bolivia said Quechua and Aymara wikipedia is plagued with lies about their languages, many invented words and also there are no native speakers of Quechua or Aymara languages ​​to regulate, which showed wikipedia as a bad image for their communities, to be absent and put the mestizo as a regulator.
The case of Canada and Navajo Wikipedia is different, until now they are the only platforms that have worked and that really work with indigenous speakers like friend Anqui, but the English language is very helpful for them, as well as the existing links between speakers native and different wikipedia organizations that respect these peoples. Unfortunately this has not happened with the Spanish versions of Latin America, the indigenous peoples have no communication with mestizos and neither do the natives want to receive orders from mestizos or criollos, they want their own organizations outside of mestizos or criollos and as there is no such communication that is why the native speakers of the Mexican Academy of Indigenous Writers AC. they put me as an observer and active editor, for them to evaluate the behaviors, so once again I'll clarify that if you know about this discussion.
I affirm again my commitment to no longer participate in Incubator, Steven can be calm because I do not intend to waste my time, much less be in a space where I am not received, this was part of the observation that they asked me native speakers, I doubt much that thousands of Spanish-speaking Indians are integrated to participate in incubator or in other projects after my participation here, because they were spectators of all this, as we discussed yesterday, but I will talk with Tepoxteco so that Huiquipedia does not leave, maybe the I can right Huiquipedia and be a great help for you Steven, since he is the only one who speaks Nahuatl from home, I will also work with Iván, a great friend of Wikimedia Mexico, to look for maternal speakers and recruit them to the projects of different indigenous languages or that they may be interested in wikipedia, and that they are young with fresh ideas.
Now I speak Ladino, I do not feel like a foreigner, besides I have learned quite fast the Judeo-Spanish or Ladino Turkish, you know very well that my ancestors are Jews, I like many crypto-Jews do not profess any religion, but that does not mean I do not love the Jewish people, in fact my grandmother still speaks a Ladino so similar to that spoken by the Moroccan or Turkish brothers, and very few elders of my town and the surroundings preserve that heritage of the old Castilian, as well as some rites and Sephardic foods that we keep within our families. My girlfriend is Mexican Jew, now I'm learning Judaism with her community. Shalom. --Marrovi (talk) 15:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Marrovi: I'm afraid that your reply on my Meta-Wiki talk page is too premature, my actual question is that how do you re-design those languages:
  1. Are you asking somebody to re-submit a close proposal for nahwiki? Or
  2. Should their nahwiki sysops unblock you, to just split articles in peace that reflect a list of common Nahuatl languages series? Or
  3. If you believe that nahwiki must be splitted, why copy-pasting instead of exporting-importing (can make respects to article histories)? Too hard to get permission? In fact you may ask a steward to let you do so.
  4. If you wanna rename the nahwiki domain, rename to (which code?) And do you know that that can let you wait for several decades?

--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:41, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As you can see, I have studied the Nahuatl languages ​​a lot, I am not an ordinary user, that's why I was interested in having space for living languages ​​such as Huastec Nahuatl, Central Nahuatl, Puebla Nahuatl, Michoacán Náhuatl or Morelos Nahuatl, etc.

I was blocked in Huiquipedia by an user who is the only one who administers there, there is no democracy in Huiquipedia and in addition there are many misguided articles, with invented words and without an academic body that rejects the errors of each article, there everyone applies its rules, l ocual denigrates the Nahuatl languages. As the articles that I passed to the incubator were edited by me, now I'm accused of copyright violation in the articles that I edited in Huiquipedia, it turns out that I can not improve or expand them because there is violation, and as I do not intend to fall games or mockery of blockages, I have taken the decision not to continue writing in the incubator, in addition to having only one user who controls everything in Huiquipedia, I will never be unblocked and will never give credit to my work because he makes others believe he is only one who knows the Nahuatl languages, in a few words he does not like to be corrected nor does he like to have competition, since it is the only way to deceive anyone that he is the only one who knows the subject and that is why he uses his power when he sees his interests in danger, but not the interests of native Nahuatl speakers.

I think it is unethical to play the blockades because it is the game of power and that is not good values ​​towards people, there were good intentions to support the causes of native speakers, the native speakers asked me to monitor what is the procedure of the administrators for that they will determine whether wikipedia is literally serving the indigenous languages ​​or not, friends of several indigenous languages ​​to see what happened here, determined not to expose their languages ​​with people who get power over them, they said that the topics of the indigenous American languages ​​in wikipedia, they asked me to close the chapter.

I think I should stop editing in the incubator, because now it will be more difficult to convince the real speakers to edit in wikipedia, there is no case that I support the projects if they decided not to continue with wikipedia. Huiquipedia is not a project endorsed by them, native speakers, those who edit there are mestizos and lack knowledge about indigenous peoples, they also only have a single psdo-active administrator who controls everything and the articles lack quality, responds only to the vision of the mestizo and if they do not like you they block you. Due to the fact that I stop editing here, I will not lose my knowledge about Nahuatl languages, this is simply not the place and they are directly running me from the project, I am not welcome, nor am I invited to edit.

Huiquipedia does not correspond to a particular language, it's a jumble of orthographies of several life and dead Nahua languages, there are many words invented by the users themselves that are not understood by native speakers and also if the administrator does not like you will be blocked by himself.--Marrovi (talk) 17:38, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Liuxinyu970226: With all due respect. How is possible that you can't see such angry and ill-feeling from this user?
Once more time, I won't to argue with him anymore about anything, untill today right here I have respected his attitude despite he is aggressive against me.
On Huiquipedia we used (included Marrovi) the nearest to Central Nahuatl (nhn) enhanced with Classical Nahuatl, it is more creepy to say that is a jumble. Marrovi wrote himself those jumble texts, I already told you, but seemingly you don't want to listen me and neither you put atention to my comments; I respond you:
First, for certain variants is almost impossible to develop his own Wikipedia, wich ones don't have enough speakers or access to internet, like Nahuatl from Michoacan or Durango.
Long time ago many users had tried to change the code from there, I don't know when, who and why put code nah, but really is incorrect and it must be nhn.
Finally I insist to say you, this user isn't able to fix anything, he'll just keep doing a enormous corpus of mini-stubs with never-ending. Almost all mistakes on Huiquipedia are from him.
@StevenJ81: For actions and comments like his last, it is I support your first option, always he'll come in and he'll do whatever he wants. I'm here for answer your questions about Nahuatl language and Huiquipedia. Regards. --Akapochtli (talk) 03:42, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It only focuses on me because I am the enemy, will it be able to correct the mistakes of Ricardo, Cuaitl, Akapochtli? Of course he will not do it because the person to attack is for me, and with that same argument to block me, it is the same rigor with which he assaults me. A person who is not a native speaker such as Tepoxteco, will never defend native speakers, of course who will protect the poor articles of the mestizos (Ricardo, Cuaitl, Akapochtli), Akapochtli was Nahuatl student as me, no Nahuatl native speaker.

Liuxinyu970226 do not let yourself be easily fooled, the fact that it has been sysop there is no guarantee that it does its job well in Huiquipedia or that it is really worried about the Nahua leguas, but when despising native speakers like Tepoxteco or Teotlalilli there is also no security for a speaker native want to edit, they are not the Akapochtli's students. Akapochtli and all mestizos must be under the orders of Tepoxteco as Teotlalilli because they are true native speakers of Nahuatl languages. --Marrovi (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Challenge[edit source]

Moreover, I challenge him. Marrovi, please, show us a single invented word in the text of Atl cahualo, Patolli, Acamapichtli or Tonalpohualli. Obviously Marrovi didn't write these.

These articles are written in central Nahuatl and are perfectly understandable by its speakers, there is no kind of "jumble".

@Marrovi: I challenge you, please, show us what mistakes they have, if you are able to do it. --Akapochtli (talk) 12:15, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are you realy?, Akapochtli, this text are your words perfectly understandable, no words by Nahuatl academics or native speakers, because in Huiquipedia no Nahuatl speakers, only Tepoxteco is Nahuatl speaker, but his language is Huastec Nahuatl from Veracruz, Tepoxteco help me when i write my articles, his articles are Otomih, Tepoxteco, if they are good articles, they need the help from Tepoxteco, he's only native speaker. Ricardo is a Mestizo, Cuaitl is a Spanish Criolle, Akapochtli is a Mestizo, Tepoxteco is only Nahuatl speaker.--Marrovi (talk) 13:47, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a teacher in my university, I havent'n time in this momment, but many words are inventeds by us (without Tepoxteco). Yes of course, if you want corrections, I have got many books in Nahuatl languages.--Marrovi (talk) 13:54, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Marrovi: From my perspective, the problem is not whether you are right or wrong about Nahuatl languages. It's that you apparently cannot work collaboratively with others on these projects. Are you retired here or not? If not, then my proposal still stands. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:57, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Steven I have not published any articles in incubator, I am a gentleman and I have given my word, but this space of Nahuatl languages ​​I have created it and you want to shut me up Is that ethics ?, I have never said I can not collaborate with Akapochtli , it is he who does not want to collaborate with me or with native speakers because he does not like the truth, he believes in his own lies, science does not, much less those who approach native speakers.
@Liuxinyu970226: this is know the truth. For tonatih is sun in (nhn), tonatiuh is (nci), cahtli is huarache, cactli is in (nci), mazanenenqui is horse in (nhn), cahuayoh is (nci), lalaxtli is orange in (nhn), naranjaxocotl is in (nci), cuachalolotl is snail in (nhn), cilin is in (nci) (Central nahuatl book Central Nahuatl of Cholula), because if the ISO code should be changed Nah is for NCI, since the active users in Huiquipedia do not know the living language of NHN, it is a lie to believe that NCI and NHN is the same language, nci is a dead language, nhn is a living language and the words used by Ricardo, Cuaitl and Akapochtli do not They are Central Nahuatl, they try to use Classical Nahuatl.
nah:Cueyatl, nah:Xochitl in referents are invented words by Akapochtli (tlalyolcatl ? (land-animal ?), yancuīctlahtōlli membrana, yancuīctlahtōlli, cueyatetl=huevos de rana, en este caso es aplicable para designar las cavidades del corazón. Nō ītōcā yancuīctlahtōltica yōllocomolli, other as In tlahtolli xochicontlacotonyotl tlahtolcueptli ica españatlahtolli itech nahuatlahtolli quihtōznequi sépalos), nah:Yolcatl nah:Tlalticpactli are invented words by Ricardo SG, por example nencacitlalli (planet), in yolcatl (Metazoa ("Metazoyotl"), Eucaryota (cualyolohtiqueh), Heterotrofos (occūanīmeh), and Cuaitl's words as nah:Tehtlahtol, nah:Tehtlahtol 2, nah:Tehtlahtol 3, some are true and are referenced with good bibliography, but others are totally false and invented by Cuaitl himself. This is the kind of scrutiny that Akapochtli, Ricardo and Cuaitl do not want to face, but that Akapochtli does want to use with me and even with native speakers like Tepoxteco. I'm sorry that huiquipedia is a club and not a gate to science. And I will not write anything in the incubator articles because I gave my word to Steven, Liuxinyu970226 but if you are interested in knowing all the edited errors, the invented words, the turns that are not the Nahuatl language in Huiquipedia, we will look for another channel of communication to start discuss the corrections of all the Huiquipedia and also we can speak of other Nahuas living languages that also have the right to be known, as well as having a connection with true native speakers of Nahuatl languages.
It is false that I do not want to work to improve things, here you are watching, I want to work with Akapochtli to better this, but he is the one who does not want, I think he will never want to be supported or supported by native speakers as Tepoxteco or Teotlalilli. I'm still retired and I have no intention of editing articles in incubator, but telling the truth will never be bad.--Marrovi (talk) 03:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226: I will not write anymore, if you like we can open discussion in another place where there is freedom of expression and things can go forward, my e-mail is, in facebook you can find me with this e-mail. Good Bye.--Marrovi (talk) 04:16, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

More accuracies[edit source]

@StevenJ81, Liuxinyu970226, Maor X, Ooswesthoesbes: I'm so sorry for my delay, and I'm sorry for my next words. I'm afraid I can't leave behind without clarifying his long wall-texts, this is the reason why I didn't want to partake here, his speeches that force us to quit the subject again and again and form a long chain of smaller matters which in turn have no end. Marrovi's speech forces me to respond, it is necessary to show his incomprehension and that he is wrong about me.

No Marrovi, I'm not here to cheat anyone, please show us a single diff where I say without a doubt a lie; I come to set a solid starting point, my comments seek to show the deepest reasoning and not just follow a bad trend.

Yes Marrovi, I wasn't born speaking Nahuatl, nevertheless my first words in this language I pronounced them in 1977, six years before you were born. I lived in the community of Zitlala, Guerrero, where I learned to speak Nahuatl and I used it daily because I was a Community Instructor there between 1985 and 1987, when you were just two years old and you were not even going to kindergarden I already spoke it.

In 1992 after finishing my Bachelor degree in Historical studies, I went to live in Huejutla, Hidalgo, where I lived for a year and I learned Huasteco Nahuatl. So when you had not even finished Primary school I already spoke in three variants; for this reason it is absurd for me that you go around spreading that according to you, I am following your steps, when I had already participated in countless activities and I had even worked in communities; Before the year 2000, together with other scholars, we had already pondered on the situation and the future of the Nahuatl languages, we proposed different scenarios and we calculated results, it is necessary to tell you that our forecastings have been quite accurate. And all this long before any statement of yours.

Yes Marrovi, it isn't my maternal language but I am a Nahuatl speaker and I do it properly, in fact I have even spoken with Tepoxteco a couple of times and I have recordings of evidence. I don't looking for new native friends on Facebook, they want to be my friends when they see my writings and comments, they like how I write nahuatl and I talk with them in their own language.

No Marrovi, I'm not a student like you, please don't try yourself compare with me, I don't hide myself behind of native speakers, I've learned enough to understand for myself and in very specific cases like this I know that you with your photos and presumptions you intend to place yourself above us, photos and diplomas say us where you was not what you know, you feel as untouchable and unbreakable person, despite you're suffered in recent years one drubbing after another. If your way is to show us your knowledge by photos then you're extremely wrong, when not even you can't correctly talk/write in Spanish, this proves that you're just a smokescreen.

No Marrovi, I don't look down on other native speakers, nor do I despise other users like you do when talking about those who currently participate in Huiquipedia.

No Marrovi, I don't defend the Huiquipedia or the users. It is true, it is necessary to correct many things but let me tell you something, there we will follow the advice of true native speakers without political pretensions who are helping with creative ideas, they are around 20 people and form a Council who endorse the changes under way, noway we will follow the ridiculous indications of a pretentious like you.

No Marrovi, I've never stopped Tepoxteco or Teotlalili, they have the open doors of Huiquipedia, actually and currently I don't have any problems with them; I just understand, you're facing us each other, you're a Troll, you put words in my mouth and you incite them, then you come here and you write that they are annoyed with me, You are the one who says everything! And trust me, they will sooner or later notice that you are using them for your benefit, you really abuse them and you don't stop using them as a shield and pretext.

Steven, Liuxinyu and Maor, I will write some sub-pages with explanations about why we must close the testing of Central Nahuatl and Classical Nahuatl, moreover I will do another for support three variants. --Akapochtli (talk) 06:13, 7 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Akapochtli, Liuxinyu970226, Maor X, Ooswesthoesbes: Akapochtli, don't start writing explanations right now. I am going to work with Maor in the next few days to set up the discussion we promised on the language issues around nahwiki, and that's the place where this discussion should happen. Aside from the question of the correct language-code address for that wiki, I think the community will have to settle the following questions, among others:
  • How broad will the linguistic scope of that wiki be? Classical Nahuatl only? Central Nahuatl only? All Nahuatl languages? Some but not others? There are several different approaches that have worked on various projects around the Wikimedia-verse.
  • Who decides what content is legitimately written?
My intention is to leave all tests on Incubator in place until these questions are settled. At that point, I would hope the nahwiki community would import anything worthwhile from Incubator, and in turn would export any valuable content in languages to be excluded at nahwiki to Incubator. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:11, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In advance and briefly I answer your last concerns:
1. Originally, nahwiki wished to receive all variant, but the lack of native writers took us to use only the most common and wich has more bibliography, this is Central Nahuatl. This can be used with Classic Nahuatl. The other variants would be included by sub-pages but I parcially agree with they get their own domain.
2. The community should be decide and actually through time it happened. Wikipedia set up the rules by the Five pillars and Policies; we, the users, must follow his guidelines and as far as possible to apply the realible and notability. All time I have put reliable and verifiable sources about nahuatl language, it has never been "my guess" or something like "I suppose..."; I usually didn't.
On Huiquipedia the community decided for my activities and abilities to appointed me as an sysop, my effort was to give direction to project.
Steven, I'd like to do one rethorical question, Why do you  decide many things inside Incubator? Obviously you have more experience, you know the procedure, you became a reliable person, etc.
My activities on Huiquipedia were to give advices, to notice what was wrong, I found that the greatest need was to put content and I did it, my contributions showed to all the other users that I am who has more knowledge and information. Right now my activities are to patrol, check, clean. So, who can improve it better than me?
Maybe we should ask for help on, there are some users who have worked with nahuatl, someone like en:User:Maunus or en:User:Kwamikagami, I don't know anyone else there. They can give a neutral point of view and confirm some statements. Meanwhile I'll working in User:Akapochtli/Central Nahuatl. Regards. --Akapochtli (talk) 01:24, 11 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just let you see, that the m:Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Pipil is verified as eligible by Steven, which matches Wp/ppl, so unfortunatelly the Steven also in theory agreed my splitting suggestion of nah. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:05, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, me too I agree. In advance for you I can say that I support four variants: huastec nahuatl (nch, nhw, nhe), Guerrero nahuatl (ngu), Orizaba nahuatl (nlv) and Pipil language (ppl). With other we must be more carefull. --Akapochtli (talk) 07:41, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Is this meaning that the domain will be kept, well this is inacceptable for Wikidata because nah isn't valid BCP47 language tag at all. -- 23:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Will this Meta RFC be a solution of this? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:49, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine so. But (the devil) will be in the details. Particularly:
  • Is everything in nahwiki in the same language? I gathered some was in Classical, and some in Central.
  • Better to create a new wiki and move everything, or to rename the existing one.
I imagine the overall problem will be addressed. This stuff bothers you more than it bothers me, though. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:44, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is no single Nahuatl language, in fact there are several Nahuatl languages that speak in Mexico, that is what every linguist knows. I have invited speakers with mother tongues, but they are not interested in having a platform as wikipedia, I have been told several times.--Marrovi (talk) 19:00, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Classical Nahuatl language is a dead language, today many scholars of this language speak this dead language, really the Classical Nahuatl will not be useful for the mother speakers of modern Nahuatl languages, but it could be useful for researchers, academics or fans of the Mexican culture.--Marrovi (talk) 19:09, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]