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Talk:Wp/cop/ⲥⲁϫⲓ `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲓ `ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ

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Latest comment: 3 years ago by Ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ in topic OC

I will start a page about Coptic neologisms: ⲥⲁϫⲓ `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲓ `ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ.

I will just list some words by alphabetical order, somebody else may set up a fancier layout. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 21:38, 18 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Reconstructed words for Coptic[edit source]

I will list here some Demotic words for which I (or somebody else in literature) reconstructed it with a Coptic pronunciation. Every time when we need a new word with a special meaning, way me take these here into consideration for creating a new word. The translation given is the meaning of the word in Demotic.

  • ⲃⲱⲃⲉⲗ Demotic bbl Hieroglyphic bbr / bābilu Babylon
  • ⲡⲓⲑⲁⲥⲉⲙ Hieroglyphic ṯzm < kzm greyhound (Pre-Egyptian *kizVm dog)
  • ϯⲟⲩⲏⲃⲓ Demotic wˁb(.t) priestess
  • ⲡⲓϣⲱⲥⲓ Demotic ḫ3s.t, ḫ3sy.(t) Hieroglyphic ḫ3s.t desert, necropolis
  • ⲡⲓϩⲱⲕ Demotic hq(3) / ḥōq Hieroglyphic ḥq3 / ḥāqi3 ruler

Discussion[edit source]

How would you reconstruct a word for pyramid? I believe it's mr in Hieroglyphic, should it be something like ⲙⲟⲩⲣ in Coptic? I was also thinking about the name for Levant. How would you reconstruct rṯnw? Thank you! --Bloomaround (talk) 07:04, 27 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

You are right about the Hieroglyphic m.r for pyramid. I used ⲙⲏⲓⲣⲓ (ⲙⲏⲣ in Sahidic) for pyramid before in [[|||||||Wp/cop/ⲁⲥⲥⲟⲩⲧⲁⲛ|ⲁⲥⲥⲟⲩⲧⲁⲛ]] which means a bundle (i.e., a bundle of rocks), ⲙⲟⲩⲣ is the verbal form which means to bind. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 11:08, 27 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
As for Levant, we could use something like ⲙⲁ `ⲛⲥⲏⲙ or ⲑⲟ `ⲛⲥⲏⲙ. In Arabic, the word Levant is translated literally as 'Bilad al-Sham' (Lands of Shem), as Sham probably stands for Shem (son of Noah). --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 11:23, 27 December 2017 (UTC)Reply
I will see if I can reconstruct a secure pronunciation of the words. The word for pyramid "mr" is rather not related to ⲙⲏⲓⲣⲓ and ⲙⲟⲩⲣ, and the latter two are for sure no direct descendants, as the r of mr was lost in the 2nd millennium BC (like in nfr and all other words ending in r). Depending on the vowel in mr, it can have different outcomes in Coptic. If it was a for instance, it would be ⲙⲟⲩ (most probably u because of the m which turns o into u) ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 23:05, 2 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
I dont' think شام refers to Noah's son, as he is called سام in Arabic. بلاد الشام means rather 'the cities/countries of Damascus', because الشام is Damascus (next to دمشق). Unfortunately, the word rṯnw was obsolete in Late Egyptian, and it seems it was not used in Demotic at all. It is therefore more difficult to reconstruct its pronunciation. Either we create a Coptic one, or we could take ⲗⲉⲃⲁⲛⲧⲉⲥ from Greek. First I didn't want to take the Western one, but forms related to "Levant" are pretty widespread, even in non-European languages like Hebrew (and Chinese, but that is not important for us). ⲁϣϣⲁⲙ from Arabic is another option, because in Arabic it sometimes refers to the city (which is ⲧⲁⲙⲁⲥⲕⲟⲥ/ⲇⲁⲙⲁⲥⲕⲟⲥ in Coptic), sometimes to the Levant. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:59, 9 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
You're right about "Levant". On the other hand, i don't know if Hebrew had a native word for the whole territory, so it makes sense they've borrowed it. And Arabic for example has it's own word so there was no need to borrow a European one. I think this applies to Coptic as well. How is this "Retenou" or "Retjenou" pronunciation cited in most sources constructed then? Or do you mean this is the Middle Egyptian pronunciation and we lack Demotic one to construct a Coptic one? --Bloomaround (talk) 11:46, 12 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
If we would know the Middle Egyptian pronunciation, that would be perfect because we could construct the Coptic one out of it. The problem here is that retjenou is a modern Egyptological pronunciation, in which the vowel e gets used in every place where the original vowel is not known. Given the fact that Old and Middle Egyptian only had the vowels a i u (Late Egyptian vowel shifts added e and o and a shwa sound) it is almost certain that retjenou is not at all the real pronunciation.
In order to reconstruct Coptic words, we would need either:
  • 1. Data from earlier stages of the language (Proto-Afro-Asiatic/Old/Middle/Late/Demotic pronunciation)
  • 2. Data from other Ancient languages which had the Egyptian word as a loanword or which were the source from which Egyptian loaned a word (i.e. Greek, Akkadian, Nubian)
  • 3. The Egyptian word in so-called group writing (often used for Semitic and Greek loans into Late Egyptian, so we can combine the results of 2. and 3. and get even better results)
The problem with retjenu is that we don't know its etymology. Is it from a Middle Eastern language, probably Semitic? Is it genuinely Egyptian? We don't know anything unfortunately.
There are lots of Middle Eastern place names, however, like Babylon, Gaza, etc..., which show up in Hieroglyphic group writing where we could reconstruct a Coptic name. Coptic actually used Greek names in these cases, though. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:35, 12 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
And what if we use ⲧⲉⲛϦⲁⲣ in broader sense of "Levant"? ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 18:57, 2 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
Or we could use native Coptic ⲡⲓⲙⲁⲛϣⲁⲓ for "Levant" attested by Chernyh which would be even better. And we could use ⲧⲉⲛϦⲁⲣ just for "Syria" ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 21:47, 16 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

Pyramid[edit source]

So, again to mr 'pyramid'. According to Takacs Etymological Dictionary of Egyptian, the etymology of mr is unknown. There are lots of proposals, but nothing is ultimately convincing. However, there is the possibility that it was originally mar (with a short a), which would develop into má, this could yield Coptic ⲙⲁ. However, there is already a common Coptic word ⲙⲁ meaning place. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 02:29, 13 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
Vycichl also connects it to Arabic root ريم and Hebrew rōm "height" (r-m and m-r metathesis). This can also lead to similarities with Arabic أمرة amara “heap of stones, mound”, Akkadian amartu "dividing wall" and Hebrew ʾāmīr "treetop, mountain summit". So i guess ⲙⲁ is a good word for a "pyramid". ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 22:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
There's also a toponym Mr-Ỉtm attested in Greek as Μοιθυμις (modern Meidum) which also verifies "ⲙⲁ" in my opinion. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 23:48, 11 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Wouldnt that rather point to ⲙⲟⲩ or something like that? Also, why does older "a" not shift to o in Coptic? Abdülhamit-i Sâlis (talk) 20:55, 16 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Why would it? We should also keep in mind plural form mr.w ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
What do you think about Schenkel's theory about Coptic ⲫⲓⲣⲁⲙ (ⲡ+ϩⲓⲣⲁⲙ, ⲣⲁⲙ stands for Egyptian mr as far as i understood it) being the source of both πυρανισ and هرم? ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 13:45, 8 June 2019 (UTC)Reply

There is already a Coptic word for pyramid, "Ⲙⲟⲩ" or "Ⲙⲱ", "ⲙⲏⲓⲣⲓ" on the other hand means bundle and the word "ⲙⲱ" comes from it. PS: I speak Coptic fluently. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 07:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

And where did you get that word from? It must be a (re)introduction, because classical texts do not show it. I know that there are some words which "slipped" through classical texts and survived otherwise, but in or this case, I'm not so sure about it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:05, 10 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ, it survived in oral Coptic. Written Coptic is a completely different story. A lot of hieroglyphic and Demotic words survive in oral Coptic while in literature their Greek translations are of more usage. For example, we still use the word "ⲭⲟ" for "soul" while in literature you will find the Greek word "ⲯⲩⲭⲏ" (Greek: "ψυχή"). Another example is the word "ϣⲉⲡϣⲓ" which means "noble person". This word is thought to have been lost in Egyptian since the time hieroglyphs were still used, but we use it a lot if we want to talk noble people. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 20:07, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

I hope nobody takes it seriously. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:20, 13 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
OK, well, as much as I dislike Greek, we have been using ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ here. But you're welcome to create new articles here, as you say you speak Coptic well. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 22:04, 14 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

ϯⲁⲓⲅⲩⲡⲧⲓⲟⲗⲟⲅⲓⲁ ⲛⲉⲙϩⲁⲛⲕⲉⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛⲉⲙⲗⲟⲅⲓⲁ[edit source]

Which word do you prefer for Egyptology? It should be a compound which should correspond to -logy, so we can use it regularly and with order for Western nouns in -logy. We could build it on ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ, with ⲥⲟⲩⲉⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ Egyptology and ⲣⲉϥⲥⲟⲩⲉⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ Egyptologist. There is another option too. ⲉⲙⲓ in compound form as ⲉⲙⲉⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ. As ⲣⲉϥⲉⲙⲓ can mean wise men, an Egyptologist would be ⲣⲉϥⲉⲙⲉⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ. But I think ⲉⲙⲓ is maybe a bit less appropriate here, because it also can mean understand and German kennen/French connaitre, whereas ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ is solely to know in the sense of German wissen/French savoir. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 15:05, 13 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think compounds with ⲥⲟⲩⲉⲛ are a wonderful idea. ⲥⲟⲩⲉⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ for egyptology, ⲥⲟⲩⲉⲛⲱⲛϧ for biology, etc... ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 00:08, 16 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ/ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ, I think ⲥⲟⲩⲉⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ for 'Egyptology' etc would be ungrammatical. Ⲥⲟⲩⲉⲛ- is the prenominal form of the infinitive and can't be completed with a noun in this way to form a compound noun. For this, a construct participle (like ⲙⲁⲓ- "lover of...; -loving" etc) would be needed, which ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ does not have (Crum 369b). If you wanted to invent a construct participle for ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ then it would probably have the form *ⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛ- (/sawn/) on the basis of the construct participle forms of other CVCC infinitives (e.g. ⲛⲟⲩϣⲡ -> ⲛⲁϣⲡ-, ⲙⲟ(ⲩ)ⲛⲕ -> ⲙⲁⲛⲕ-, ⲕⲱⲣϫ -> ⲕⲁⲣϫ- and ⲕⲱⲗⲡ -> ⲕⲁⲗⲡ-). By the way, I think *ⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ would be a descriptive noun and therefore (i) if used attributively it would be an adjective "egyptology, egyptological etc" (e.g. *ⲟⲩϫⲱⲙ ⲛ̀ⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ "an egyptology/-ical book") or (ii) if substantivised it would be a noun meaning "Egyptologist" (e.g. *ⲡⲓⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ i.e. "the (one) who knows Egypt; the Egypt-know-er"). To form "Egyptology" the abstract prefix ⲙⲉⲧ-/ⲙⲉⲑ- would be needed, forming *ϯⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ. However, I prefer not to invent new grammatical forms unless absolutely necessary.
An alternative would be to use the construct participle ⲃⲁⲗ- (from infinitive ⲃⲱⲗ "to loosen; melt, dissolve; interpret, explain scriptures etc"). This would closely follow the use of λόγος “explanation” in words such as Egypt-ology (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1). Thus, ⲡⲓⲃⲁⲗⲭⲏⲙⲓ would be "Egyptologist" (i.e. "the Egypt-interpreter/explainer") and the abstract noun ϯⲙⲉⲑⲃⲁⲗⲭⲏⲙⲓ would be "Egyptology".
More broadly, "the study/inquiry of..." could be ⲡⲓϫⲓⲛϧⲟⲧϧⲉⲧ ⲛ̀ⲥⲁ and is the form I've preferred to date. - AB
Then, I would still prefer ⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛ- because we may need ⲃⲱⲗ for chemistry. So, ⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ for egyptologist and ⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ for egyptology. It would be nice to have precise words and structures, even if that means we have to reconstruct grammatical forms. I mean, the idea that there was a construct state in Egyptian for ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ is not really adventurous and would not be some unlinguistic blabla. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 16:15, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
Ϯϯⲙⲁϯ ⲛⲉⲙⲁⲕ - AB
Yeah, true, thanks for that information, AB. ⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛ looks more probable. We could even use ⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲃⲱⲗ for chemist, and ⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲃⲱⲗ for chemistry, because I just thought of German Scheidekunst and Scheidekunde and Dutch Scheikunde (lit. separation-lore or dissolution-lore) for chemistry. Then we could also use ⲁⲗⲭⲏⲙⲓⲁ for alchemy, and the two words wouldnt sound so similar. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:44, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Game[edit source]

Hello everyone. To expand articles about football and other games we actually need a word for "game". There's a Demotic word for "to play" – ḥbꜥ which we could use to create a "game", and there's also a compound ı͗r ḥbꜥ.t which means the verb could be also used for a "game" noun right? Please correct me if i'm wrong. ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 10:00, 8 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think you're right but the problem is I think the word is not attested in Coptic and I don't know the vowels in Demotic. There is, however, a word ⲣⲉϥⲕⲓϯ meaning player, gambler in Bohairic. We thus could take ⲕⲓϯ as a word for game. As I think ⲕⲓϯ is actually a verb (Vycichl thinks its a variant of ⲕⲱϯ) because ⲣⲉϥ- is used in combination with verbs, this means that ⲕⲓϯ meant something like gamble and ⲕⲓϯ (as a masculine noun, not feminine, as verbal nouns are always m) would mean playing, gambling, thus play, game. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:05, 3 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

غزة[edit source]

Which name do you wanna have for Gaza? Rainer Hannig's Egyptian dictionary lists for Gaza not only Gḏt, which is Egyptianized Gaza, but also dmj n mḥ n p3 ḥq3, which means the 'city which the ruler has conquered'. This mḥ n p3 ḥq3 would be in Coptic ⲙⲁϩⲙⲫⲱⲕ (contracted from ⲙⲁϩⲛⲡⲓϩⲱⲕ). So, we could also take ⲙⲁϩⲙⲫⲱⲕ instead of ⲅⲁⲍⲁ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 00:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure we should use ⲙⲁϩⲙⲫⲱⲕ as the main name for Gaza. It has to be mentioned in the article for sure but rather as a historical "native" name, in my opinion. What about Gḏt? Can we reconstruct it? --Bloomaround (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
Is it to far-fetched for you?
Most spellings of Gḏt point to a gaḏat-, which could be a ⲕⲱϫⲧ in Coptic. However, nothing is revealed of the quality of the g, and if it would become palatal in late Demotic, it would yield ϫⲱϫⲧ in Bohairic. Furthermore, there is a spelling which points to a pronunciation gaḏaya, and if we think that the forms like gaḏatu came into Egyptian early enough, they would lose the feminine t like ordinary Egyptian words and both gaḏaya (at any time) and a gaḏatu (if it came into Egyptian early) would yield ⲕⲱϫⲓ or ϫⲱϫⲓ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 20:55, 16 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
With "early" I mean centuries before the New Kingdom, before Late Egyptian was spoken. 20:57, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't say it's far-fetched because it's not made up and actually existed. Let's wait for others' opinion anyway. I would rather use ⲕⲱϫⲓ or ϫⲱϫⲓ if you'd ask me. --Bloomaround (talk) 13:14, 19 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
Me too, the problem is just I don't know (yet?) whether it was ⲕⲱϫⲓ or ϫⲱϫⲓ. Also, many Semitic feminine loanwords usually preserved their -t in Egyptian, because they were loaned when Egyptian already lost its feminine -t and so the Semitic words preserved their -t, because it was not lost a second time. Therefore, it could be even ⲕⲱϫⲧ or ϫⲱϫⲧ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:37, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
Does other attested Greek name for Gaza Κάδυτις helps us here in any way? --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 13:55, 12 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
I will have a look again on the etymology. Maybe a second view helps, and I will tell you my opinion tomorrow or overmorrow. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 23:14, 12 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
Thank you, looking forward to it! --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 23:40, 12 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Good that I took a second look. So it turns out the underlying Hieroglyphic pronunciation was gaḏāti (instead of gaḏati, which changes the Coptic outcome). That means we would get a ⲕⲁϫⲱⲧ or ϫⲁϫⲱⲧ. Even better, Werner Vycichl explicitly reconstructs the form in his Dictionnaire Étymologique de la Langue Copte, and comes up with ⲕⲁϫⲱⲧ. So we're safe with ⲕⲁϫⲱⲧ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:41, 13 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your research! Let's use ⲕⲁϫⲱⲧ as a primary name, ⲙⲁϩⲙⲫⲱⲕ as a second name and ⲅⲁⲍⲁ as a historical/Hellenic name. ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 01:01, 15 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

Royal titles[edit source]

In addition to discussion i've started in Wp/cop/ⲙⲟⲥⲭⲱ, what word should we use for Prince in sense of heir of the king and also in sense of title lower than the king? --Bloomaround (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

We can reconstruct the Demotic and Hieroglyphic word for 'prince' s3 nsw, which is also preserved in Greek sources as ⲥⲓⲟⲛⲥⲓⲟⲥ. The first syllable ('son') is also ⲥⲓ in Coptic (also in the construct state, which I think is irregular, but it is so widespread that there are no chances of errors in transmission or whatever). nsw is a bit more complicated, but researchers have agreed that it was ⲉⲛⲥ in Demotic and Coptic (in Demotic maybe with a shwa at the end), so we would have a ⲥⲓⲉⲛⲥ. In some instances, Greek ⲟ served to transcribe a sound which would be later a e sound in Coptic, i.e. Greek ⲥⲟⲛⲧⲏⲣ < nsw ntrw 'king of the gods', which would be in Bohairic probably ⲥⲉⲛⲑⲏⲣ (rather than ⲛⲥⲉⲛⲑⲏⲣ, because the n would have certainly be dropped). The Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue copte says to ⲥⲓⲟⲛⲥⲓⲟⲥ that the "egyptian form" is si-n-si, which would point to Coptic ⲥⲓⲛⲥ, but I somewhat doubt that because the vowel seems to be preserved in a couple of similar formations, like ϩⲱⲣⲥⲓⲏⲥⲓ and ⲥⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ. Plus, we have a Greek ⲥⲓⲟⲛⲥⲓⲟⲥ, which also speaks against ⲥⲓⲛⲥ. So I would go for ⲥⲓⲉⲛⲥ 'prince'. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

Looks nice, let's use it --Bloomaround (talk) 01:44, 17 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
According to Gundacker 2019: Retention or Rejection. The Fate of Ältere Komposita at the Transition from the Dreisilbengesetz to the Zweisilbengesetz, p 161, it is more likely that the final I was preserved, thus: ⲥⲓⲉⲛⲥⲓ. And the Greek ⲥⲓⲟⲛⲥⲓⲟⲥ with its ending -ios would also point it. I will change it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 12:35, 12 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Ok, thank you. I've actually found an attested Sahidic term for "princess" – ⲧϣⲉⲉⲣⲉⲛⲣⲣⲱ. We can easily coin Bohairic terms for both 'prince' and 'princess' with it. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 23:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Royal titles in oral Coptic[edit source]

In Coptic we still use the hieroglyphic terms "nsw" and "bjtj" for the meaning of "King". "Nsw" in Coptic is "ⲉⲛⲥ" and "bjtj" is "ⲃⲓⲱⲧ" which also means "honey". We still use this terms to refer to the historical Upper and Lower Egyptian kings. When we want to say "dual king" (which word is used as a synonym of "ⲟⲩⲣⲟ") we say "ⲥⲉⲛⲃⲱⲧ". There is also the feminine "ⲥⲉⲛⲃⲱϯ". Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 11:47, 26 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Government terminology[edit source]

What word should we use for mayor? And for the whole concept of "government"? Maybe just replace it with "state"?

Also i was about to write "clockwise" but realised i had no idea how to even say "clock". I guess we could create it using ⲱⲡ and ⲛⲁⲩ but i just can't put them together. Can somebody help? --Bloomaround (talk) 01:44, 17 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
What about ϣⲉⲟⲩⲛⲟⲩ for 'clock'? From ϣⲓ 'measure' and ⲟⲩⲛⲟⲩ 'hour'. We can wait for other suggestions.
I will see what term for mayor we have in Demotic and Hieroglyphic, and will come up with some suggestions. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:34, 18 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
So, for 'government' we could use ⲙⲉⲧϩⲱⲕ, from the above mentioned ϩⲱⲕ. For mayor, I found in Hieroglyphic rmṯ ˁ3 ('big man'), would yield ⲣⲁⲙⲟ - the problem is that ⲣⲁⲙⲁⲟ 'rich man' (originally 'big man') has the same etymology and maybe that is not good, but I could live with it.
The other word is ḥ3tj-ˁ, which would be ϩⲟⲩⲓⲧ. But ϩⲟⲩⲓⲧ is mostly used for 'first' (next to ϣⲟⲣⲡ) in Coptic. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 00:36, 19 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
ⲣⲁⲙⲟ looks better and makes more sense to me. It also resonates with etymology of "mayor" used in the majority of European languages (which shouldn't be a big thing to us but anyway). Thank you! --Bloomaround (talk) 13:14, 19 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
You're welcome. I will add them to the new words. And, in case it is a female mayor, it is ϯⲣⲁⲙⲱ with ⲱ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:41, 19 January 2018 (UTC)Reply
For "government" I've just come across the coined term ⲡⲓⲙⲁⲛⲉⲣϣⲓϣⲓ (ⲙⲁⲛ- + ⲉⲣϣⲓϣⲓ) on the model of ⲙⲁⲛⲉⲥⲱⲟⲩ "shepherd" etc in Ayoub Farag Ibrahim's book ⲡⲓⲛⲟⲩⲃ (Part IV, p. 9), which I think is rather good. - AB
Sounds good, I will add it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 12:44, 28 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Hi all, do you know that there is a pretty detailed list of civil & military hierarchies, positions, weapons etc preserved in various Coptic scalae? The most comprehensive are:

I hope you find this helpful. - AB

ⲁϩⲏ, ϯϣⲉⲡϩⲙⲟⲧ :) ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 20:09, 27 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

الملكية[edit source]

What word should we use for monarchy/kingship? In Hieroglyphic Egyptian, there is md.t nb wˁ which is ⲙⲉⲧⲛⲉⲃⲟⲩⲁⲓ in Coptic. From Greek, we would have ⲙⲟⲛⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ. Traditionally, ⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲣⲟ is used for both kingdom and kingship, but I think a semantic distinction would be good. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:48, 27 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Both ⲙⲟⲛⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ and ⲙⲉⲧⲛⲉⲃⲟⲩⲁⲓ is fine. I prefer Coptic neologisms, but as there are people here who prefer Greek, we could use both actually, depending on one's personal preference. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 16:53, 27 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
I also prefer ⲙⲉⲧⲛⲉⲃⲟⲩⲁⲓ. Any input from someone else? If not, I will add it to the list of new words. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 20:09, 27 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
As you know I don't like derived forms. I'm not sure if ⲙⲟⲛⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ̀ is actually attested in Coptic but ⲃⲁⲥⲓⲗⲓⲁ̀ (and related forms) certainly are in Bohairic and Sahidic and would be my preferred choice as a counterpart to ⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲣⲟ. - AB
I also thought about ⲃⲁⲥⲓⲗⲉⲓⲁ, but it is not used as "monarchy", rather like ⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲣⲟ. So... Hmmm... What about we say that ⲙⲉⲧⲛⲉⲃⲟⲩⲁⲓ can be used by the people who are purists and the Greek word for the others? ⲙⲟⲛⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ is unfortunately not attested in any text and dictionary I know, but it would match "monarchy" better. So I am still not sure what to do. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 23:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
Aren't both md.t nb wˁ and ⲙⲉⲧⲛⲉⲃⲟⲩⲁⲓ mean more like "aristocracy"? ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 06:28, 27 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
nb wˁ literally means "sole ruler", so ⲛⲉⲃⲟⲩⲁⲓ for ⲙⲟⲛⲁⲣⲭⲟⲥ and ⲙⲉⲧⲛⲉⲃⲟⲩⲁⲓ for ⲙⲟⲛⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ would make more sense than 'aristocracy'? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:24, 27 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Oooh true, sorry i haven't recognize wˁ as "one". "Aristocracy" most likely would be ⲁⲛⲛⲏⲃ. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 08:24, 28 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

Military terms[edit source]

In Sahidic, we have the term ⲗⲉⲙⲏⲏϣⲉ 'capitain, warrior, champion', from Hieroglyphic ỉmỉ-rȝ mšˁ 'general'. This was, with article, also loaned into Meroitic plmos = pelamuša, pelamoša 'officer'. In Bohairic, the form would be ⲗⲁⲙⲏϣ. We could use it for "officer", in the sense of higher-ranking soldier. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 15:43, 8 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Yes, let's use it. I've been recently trying to make an article about Egyptian army and to come up with Coptic names for modern higher military insignia. All the Greek names are taken from Scalae and correlated with approximated number of soldiers under command.
  • Field Marshal - ⲣⲉϥⲥⲟϭⲛⲓ (مشير)
  • General - ⲥⲧⲣⲁⲧⲏⲅⲟⲥ/ⲥⲧⲣⲁⲧⲉⲗⲁⲧⲏⲥ (فريق أول)
  • Lieutenant General -
  • Major General -
  • Colonel - ⲁⲫⲉ ̀ⲛϫⲱⲧ (عقيد)
  • Brigadier - ⲭⲓⲗⲓⲁⲣⲭⲟⲥ (عميد)
  • Lieutenant colonel - ⲡⲉⲛⲧⲏⲕⲟⲛⲧⲁⲣⲭⲟⲥ (مقدم)
  • Captain/Major - ϩⲩⲕⲁⲧⲟⲛⲧⲁⲣⲭⲟⲥ (رائد, نقيب)
Let's take ⲥⲧⲣⲁⲧⲏⲧⲗⲁⲧⲏⲥ as general, because ⲥⲧⲣⲁⲧⲏⲅⲟⲥ is more a "commander" in a broader sense. As far as the writing is concerned, I would take ⲥⲧⲣⲁⲧⲏⲧⲗⲁⲧⲏⲥ, because it is the most common, although ⲥⲧⲣⲁϯⲗⲁⲧⲏⲥ, ⲥⲧⲣⲁⲧⲓⲗⲁⲧⲏⲥ, ⲥⲧⲣⲁϯⲏⲗⲁⲧⲏⲥ, ⲥⲧⲣⲁⲧⲉⲗⲁⲧⲏⲥ also show up. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
And yeah, ⲗⲁⲙⲏϣ for officer is great. Let's use it. بطرس مرقس (talk) 14:27, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Vizier[edit source]

What word should we take for vizier/viceroy? Maybe a reconstruction of Demotic ṯꜣty is possible? ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 15:43, 16 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

I would take ⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ because the distinction between minister and vizier is mostly done in non-Middle Eastern languages and somewhat artificial. (grandvizier would be just a prime minister; Angela Merkel as the chancellor of Germany would be literally adressed as "grand vizier of Germany" in, i.e., Urdu). Middle Eastern languages usually have one word for it: وزیر (which is also used to translate ⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ into Arabic). The same word gets translated into English as "vizier" when it is about traditional governance, and as "minister" when we talk about the modern contemporary countries. I looked into Demotic ṯꜣty. I couldn't find anything but I keep looking. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 00:39, 17 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
For prime minister/grand vizier etc is the word ⲥⲁⲭⲥⲁϧ known (it was used in Wp/cop/ⲁⲃⲣⲁϩⲁⲙ ⲉⲗϫⲁⲟϩⲁⲣⲓ)? What does ⲥⲁⲭ- mean? Or can we translate it from Arabic to ⲡⲓⲛⲟϫ ⲛⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ? This is what we used in most other articles. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 20:38, 5 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
ⲥⲁⲭⲟ means "chief" so "chief ⲥⲁϧ" but I think the form should rather be ⲥⲁⲭⲟⲛⲥϧⲟⲩⲓ or ⲥⲁⲭⲁⲛⲥϧⲟⲩⲓ - see ⲥⲁⲭⲟ, ⲥⲁⲭⲁⲛⲉⲕⲱⲧ, ⲥⲁⲭⲁⲛⲗⲉⲃⲗⲁⲉⲓⲥ. I'm not sure if it's a good term for "prime minister", it's rather "chief scribe". As I've said before, I'd use "ⲣⲉⲙⲛϫⲟⲙ" as it's attested for "vizier" (so "minister"). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 22:54, 5 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
It would also be interesting to see what the etymology of ⲥⲁⲭⲟ is. Vycichl thinks it is a Greek spelling for ⲥⲁϧⲟ "great scribe", which would make the orthography of ⲥⲁⲭⲥⲁϧ a funny one. Cerny, on the other hand, thinks it comes from ⲥⲁⲕϩⲟ "gatherer of face" = esteemed man.
In any case, I would not use it because we generally use ⲡⲓⲛⲟϫ ⲛⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ for prime minister. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:02, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Where does ⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ come from? I can't find it anywhere. I know words for "minister" but they are of Greek origin like ⲗⲉⲓⲧⲟⲩⲣⲅⲟⲥ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 08:37, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
From a group of friends of mine, after other words with ⲗⲁ-. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:24, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Also funny you say a group of your friends? I saw ⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ already ten years ago on a now defunct facebook group. Are you active on facebook? بطرس مرقس (talk) 14:50, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Not really, I have an account but I'm not active in the sense I post a lot of Coptic things (and I did not have an account ten years ago). I only learned the word a few (maybe 3 or 4?) years ago myself. But you know, such things spread quickly among enthusiasts. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:58, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
It fits well with ⲗⲁⲙⲏϣ, so I'm all in favor of ⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ. بطرس مرقس (talk) 14:28, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
And what's the connection between ⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ "chief of scribes" and "minister"? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:18, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
I'm saddened it's not obvious. A minister of a cabinet is the leader in his department and he has many secretaries = scribes. With the same argument, we could invalidate the use of "minister" in the sense of "minister", because we would we call a government minister a servant. بطرس مرقس (talk) 15:24, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Well because he's actually a servant of the people that elected him or he is responsible for I guess...We can't just invalidate a term that's a historically established name for something. But using a "chief of secretaries" neologism for a "minister" when we have an attested term...I'm really really not sure what's the logic here. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:31, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
The term you suggest has been used by other scholars in other meanings too, not just minister, like politician, statesman, governor and generally government official. Therefore I don't think it's useful. بطرس مرقس (talk) 15:40, 6 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Parliament[edit source]

See discussion Talk:Wp/cop/ⲙⲁⲛϩⲉⲙⲥⲓ ⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:53, 30 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Nation / national / nationalism[edit source]

What words do we use for these three terms? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 18:00, 5 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

I've used ⲡⲓϣⲗⲟⲗ/ⲛ̀ϣⲗⲟⲗ/ϯⲙⲉⲧⲙⲁⲓϣⲗⲟⲗ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 22:08, 5 October 2020 (UTC)Reply
Yeah that sounds good! ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:50, 6 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Scientific/medical terminology[edit source]

So there's a couple of terms i would like to discuss with you:

  • Evolution (i suppose we can't just use "growth", but i assume we could use "development" here, but i'm not common with the word with this meaning)
What about ⲙⲉⲧⲙⲟϣⲓ? ⲙⲉⲧ- is used to create abstract nouns, ⲙⲟϣⲓ means go. (ϫⲓⲛⲙⲟϣⲓ is used for gait, way of walking, even behavior) ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:34, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Metabolism (we could create the word using "material" and "exchange" as it's made in Armenian or German although i don't know the word for abstract "material" not meaning garment or woven material.)
ϩⲉⲃϣⲉⲃⲓⲱ maybe? ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 01:04, 15 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Photosynthesis (should we just use Greek word as it's made in majority of languages or create a neologism?)
  • Virus (should we just use ⲃⲓⲣⲟⲩⲥ?)
True, it is widespread in many languages, including Arabic. The Greek word ⲓⲟⲥ we should rather use for Grünspangift (= Copper(II) acetate poison?), as it is used in SB Kopt. 006. Because the Latin ending -us shows up as -ⲟⲥ in Coptic, even in non-Greek words like ⲕⲁⲓⲥⲁⲣⲟⲥ (where the ending is actually unnecessary), it is more Coptic to write ⲃⲓⲣⲟⲥ, though. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:34, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • AIDS
ⲉⲓⲧⲥ (ϣⲱⲛⲓ ̀ⲛⲉⲓⲧⲥ, ϣⲉⲛⲉⲓⲧⲥ)? ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 01:04, 15 July 2018 (UTC)Reply

--Bloomaround (talk) 00:38, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Science[edit source]

Is Wp/cop/ⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲱⲛϧ biology? And do we use ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ or ⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉϥⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ for science?. In the article, also for the category, I used ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ. But we could change it. What is used here? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 22:31, 31 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, ⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲱⲛϧ is biology. In case we haven't added it to the list, I'll do it. For science, I'd use ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ. ⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉϥⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ could be "scientism" or the state of being a scientist, or something like it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

ϩⲁⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ `ⲛϯⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲃⲱⲗ[edit source]

As we are talking about scientific terminology, here are some for chemistry and related areas.

I thought about ϯⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛⲃⲱⲗ for chemistry (see above). But if you come up with better words, please write it here.
I will add words we can use for several chemistry-related things which I found in an article about (Arabic) alchemy in Coptic. As you will see, many of the words come from Arabic and Greek, even though in some cases we have a native Coptic word. In a few cases, there is an Arabic, a Coptic and a Greek word available. Some of the below words come from a Sahidic text (from "The Master spoke: Take one of the "Sun", and One Unit of Almulgam." Hitherto Unnoticed Coptic Papyrological Evidence of Early Arabic Alchemy., from Tonio Sebastian Richter), so I will change the orthography into Bohairic. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 17:02, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • ⲁⲗⲕⲁⲗⲁⲕⲁⲛⲑ: (green) vitirol, Cu-vitriol
  • ⲁⲗⲙⲁⲣⲑⲁⲕ: litharge
  • ⲁⲗⲭⲓⲡⲣⲓⲧ: sulphur
  • ⲁⲛⲛⲟⲩϣⲁⲧⲉⲣ: salmoniac
  • ⲁⲥⲥⲉⲣⲛⲏϧ (Sahidic ⲁⲥⲥⲉⲣⲛⲏϩ): arsenic (from الزرنيخ, so obviously in Bohairic with ϧ)
  • ⲁⲥⲥⲓⲡⲁⲕ: quicksilver
  • ⲑⲏⲛ: sulphur (from greek theion?)
  • ⲑⲣⲓⲙ: quicksilver (native?)
  • ⲓⲟⲥ: Copper(II) acetate poison
Some possible additions:

Profane words[edit source]

We should make a difference between ⲃⲁϩ 'penis' (it is preserved in Sahidic, but it would sound the same in Bohairic, given its Hieroglyphic pronunciation *ba3īḥ), which can be used in a normal context and ⲥⲏⲧ 'dick, cock', which is more for the usage among friends ...lol. In case you need that word :)) ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 17:48, 12 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

Transportation[edit source]

What words should we use for different types of roads, highways, autobans etc? Also for airports/railroads. My suggestion for the latter two are ϯⲁⲏⲣⲙⲣⲱ and ⲡⲓⲙⲱⲓⲧ `ⲙⲃⲉⲛⲓⲡⲓ. But i think that it should involve discussion anyway, especially about "highway" – should we just take a loanword like French ϣⲟⲥⲥⲉ or coin a new word? --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 08:32, 1 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

What kind of compound is ⲁⲏⲣⲙⲣⲱ? I think I would go for ⲡⲓⲙⲱⲓⲧ `ⲙⲃⲉⲛⲓⲡⲓ. I would only use French words if they are also present in (Egyptian) Arabic, and chausee is not common. I think we can use the same Coptic word for highway and autobahn? There are two common words for road, street, path in Coptic, ϧⲓⲣ and ⲙⲱⲓⲧ. What if we create a noun "big street" for avenue (with the adjective ⲟ, which is only used in compounds in Coptic and is thus suitable for creating new compounds) and "car street" for highway? In that case, we would need a word for car (should we take ⲃⲉⲣⲉϭⲱⲟⲩⲧⲥ?). ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:39, 1 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, there's a typo. It's ⲁⲏⲣⲉⲙⲣⲱ for airport – ⲁⲏⲣ (air) + ⲉⲙⲣⲱ (port). The idea with "car street" looks good to me. Should we take ⲡⲓⲙⲱⲓⲧ `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲉϭⲱⲟⲩⲧⲥ then (cause ⲃⲉⲣⲉϭⲱⲟⲩⲧⲥ seems like a common word for a modern car) --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 18:37, 1 May 2018 (UTC)Reply
Ah yeah I see now. For airport, I would suggest "place of flying/flight", this is more comprehensible for Copts, also the Arabic word means "place of flying". (A literal translation from English would rather be ⲉⲙⲣⲱ `ⲛⲁⲏⲣ )

So, "place of flying" is ⲙⲁⲛϩⲱⲗ or ⲙⲁⲛϩⲁⲗⲁⲓ, depending on which word we wanna use for flying.

And ⲡⲓⲙⲱⲓⲧ `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲉϭⲱⲟⲩⲧⲥ looks good. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 20:10, 2 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

ⲙⲁⲛϩⲁⲗⲁⲓ is better i think cause ⲙⲁⲛϩⲱⲗ also means "exit". ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 18:20, 21 January 2019 (UTC)Reply

Art and poetry[edit source]

I was about to start writing an article about Hugo, but then decided to discuss new words here first. What words should we use for:

  • Poet (ⲡⲟⲓⲏⲧⲏⲥ?) and poetry
  • Playwright (ⲇⲣⲁⲙⲁⲧⲟⲩⲣⲅⲟⲥ?) and play
  • Novelist (ⲡⲓⲥⲁϦ/ϯⲥⲁϦ?) and novel

--ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 21:30, 6 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ!
For "poet", I think we could take the Greek word. As far as I know, there are no explicit terms for poet, poetry in Egyptian. At least I haven't found any words. If "poet" is ⲡⲟⲓⲏⲧⲏⲥ, we have two options for "poetry": ⲡⲟⲓⲏⲥⲏ and ⲙⲉⲧⲡⲟⲓⲏⲧⲏⲥ. For "poem", we could use ⲡⲟⲓⲏⲙⲁ.
I will look for Coptic expressions for the other words, although it seems legitimate to take over Greek expressions. For novel, we could just take a Coptic word for "story", like Arabic does it.

However, it seems not too difficult to come up with a genuine Coptic word for "play". ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 19:30, 10 May 2018 (UTC)Reply

And what do you think about taking ⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲣⲱⲙⲓ for "character" and "person, individual" in general (we could also use ⲙⲉⲧⲉⲣⲣⲱⲙⲓ for "personality" then)? --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 12:29, 7 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
The meaning of ⲙⲉⲧⲉⲣⲣⲱⲙⲓ would rather be 'puberty', I guess. Unfortunately, there is no clear distinction between man and human. Etymologically, it would make sense to use ⲥⲁ for man, and ⲣⲱⲙⲓ for human/person. When it comes to "character" in a story, we could do it similar to Hebrew. They took an old word for 'image, picture, likeness' and added the meaning "character". For instance, we have the word ⲑⲟⲩⲱⲧ, meaning 'idol' and (via 'statue') 'pillar'. we could use it for 'character' too. The origin sense of the word was 'picture, likeness' anyway (as reflected in the name of Tutankhamun - living image of Amun), thus very close to the word many languages use for 'character'. Or we could use the Greek term ⲭⲁⲣⲁⲕⲧⲏⲣ, as the word is also used in Arabic (although only colloquially and not widespreadly). ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:41, 7 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, you're right. Let's use ⲑⲟⲩⲱⲧ and ⲭⲁⲣⲁⲕⲧⲏⲣ then. ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 08:30, 11 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

What word should we use for "design"? ⲙⲉⲧⲧⲁⲃⲧⲉⲃ/ϫⲓⲛⲧⲁⲃⲧⲉⲃ maybe? ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 08:30, 11 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

ⲙⲉⲧⲧⲁⲃⲧⲉⲃ looks good! ⲙⲉⲧ- is for abstract nouns and thus I would prefer it in this case. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 16:19, 11 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲛⲓⲃⲉⲛ, we use the word "ⲣⲉϥϭⲱⲗⲡ" for poet, because we believe that poets create (Ancient Egyptian and Greek belief). Poem is called "ⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉϥϭⲱⲗⲡ" and "I write poems" is called "Ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ϭⲱⲗⲡ" or sometimes "ⲉⲣϭⲱⲗⲡ" in order to emphasize on the action. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 12:48, 26 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Colors[edit source]

What words should be use for different colors?

  • Red – ⲑⲱⲣϣ
  • Green - ⲟⲩⲱⲧ (ⲟⲩⲧⲟⲩⲉⲧ, ⲃⲟⲧⲃⲉⲧ)
  • Yellow - this is the most complicated one. There was no real distinction between red and yellow in Egyptian as far as i know, so we have to come up with new word or meaning. (ⲙⲣⲱϣ maybe?)
Well, ⲙⲏⲣϣ seems to be more often used for 'red(dish)' than 'yellow', but I mean we could start to use it for yellow only. The only other option we have is taking it from Ancient Greek. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 22:43, 10 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • Blue - the same as with yellow, but there's a word attested "lapis-lazuli coloumred, blue" – ḫsbč̣(and even another one – čfrr). I have no idea if it's possible to render it in Coptic though.
In Coptic Old Testament ϩⲩⲁⲕⲓⲛⲑⲓⲛⲟⲛ is used for "blue" --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk)

01:38, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I tried to reconstruct the Coptic outcome of the hieroglyphic words for 'blue', it is impossible because the hieroglyphic pronunciation is not known either.
Several Greek words are employed for 'blue', most prominently ⲁⲉⲣⲓⲛⲟⲥ (in all three occasions written ⲁⲏⲣ-) and as you said ϩⲩⲁⲕⲓⲛⲑⲓⲛⲟⲥ. They are both not perfect, because the first one means 'cerulean' and the other is just an adjective to hyacinth, but so it goes. We have to deal with it, a lot of languages have surprisingly big problems with coming up with genuine color names. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 22:43, 10 July 2018 (UTC)Reply
There's ⲁⲥⲟⲩⲗⲓ for "blue" in Labib's "ⲛⲓϫⲱⲙ `ⲛⲧⲉ ⲡⲓⲁϧⲱⲙⲫⲁⲧ ⲉⲡϫⲓⲛϯⲥⲃⲱ `ⲛϯⲁⲥⲡⲓ `ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ" but i have no idea where it comes from.
There's also:
  • ⲛⲏϫⲓ for "green"
  • ⲁⲟⲩⲓⲛ for "yellow"
  • ⲓⲁⲛ for "purple"
I don't know where these come from as well. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 08:14, 29 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
  • White - ⲟⲩⲱⲃϣ (ⲟⲩⲃⲁϣ)
  • Black - ⲭⲁⲙⲉ

Also there are colours like brown, grey, pink, purple etc. But i think we have to deal with major ones first. --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 00:26, 1 June 2018 (UTC)Reply

Translatewiki.net[edit source]

Can we collect here the words we come up with or create for translatewiki?

I used for the translations I made today:

  • ⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲉⲧⲭⲏⲡ for password
  • ⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ for user
  • ⲣⲁⲛ `ⲛⲣⲉϥⲉⲣⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ for username
  • ϣⲱϣⲓ for category (Literally, it means "field" and comes from Hieroglyphic sḫ.t and does not exist in Bohairic, but in most other dialects of Coptic. As the semantic development for "field (meadow)" to "academic field/area/category" is not far-fetched, I think it is a very good use of this word. I didnt want to use the actually attested Bohairic words for "field", because I think we can leave them in their sense of the literal field, meadow etc.)
That's actually very nice. --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 20:56, 6 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 17:59, 6 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks! In case you wonder why I came up with ϣⲱϣⲓ, and not ⲥⲱϣⲓ or ⲥⲱϧⲓ: In many environments, old ḫ develops into ϣ in all dialects except for the most conservative (most prominently Akhmimic, but also pre-Sahidic local Theban dialect). In Bohairic and Fayyumic, if s is in the same word as ϣ, it gets assimilated to ϣ. Thats why we have Bohairic ϣⲁϣϥ, Fayyumic ϣⲉϣⲃ '7', but Sahidic ⲥⲁϣϥ. Akhmimic preserved an old ⲥⲁⳉϥ (ⳉ is equal to Bohairic ϧ; all from *safḫaw). Similar is our case of 'field', where Sahidic has ⲥⲱϣⲉ, Fayyumic has ϣⲱϣⲓ (which is also exactly the form we would expect in Bohairic). Some (very few) Sahidic texts also have ⲥⲱϩⲉ, which is an influence from a local Upper Egyptian dialect with a conservative phonology. In Akhmimic, the word would be ⲥⲱⳉⲉ, as Sahidic doesnt have the sound x, only h, such a local word would be written ⲥⲱϩⲉ in Sahidic. Btw, on the other hand, the assimilation of s to ϣ when the other consonant is ϫ, happens in Sahidic and Fayyumic, but not in Bohairic and Akhmimic: Thus ϣⲁϫⲉ (Sahidic), ϣⲉϫⲓ (Fayyumic), but ⲥⲉϫⲉ (Akhmimic and Subakhmimic/Lycopolitan) and ⲥⲁϫⲓ (Bohairic). ⲉ is the "older" vowel, Sahidic and Bohairic have ⲁ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
I have previously used:
Do you know the etymology of ⲱⲧⲟ by any chance? So we could make sure it would be the same in Bohairic. If ⲱⲧⲟ is not some "aberrant" Akhmimic spelling, than I guess ⲱ would stay the same in Bohairic, as should ⲟ. If the word is stressed on the first syllable, it could indeed look exactly the same. But I don't wanna give a final answer without an etymology. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
I couldn't find etymology for ⲱⲧⲟ yet, but there's also Demotic word "ḫn" with the same meaning. --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 09:57, 8 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
Some additions for everyone to discuss:
  • ⲁⲗⲓⲧⲥⲁϫⲓ for "citation" or "quote"
  • ⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁϫⲓ for "text"
  • ϫⲓⲛⲉⲣϭⲓⲏ for "term"
  • ⲁⲣⲣⲱⲕⲥⲉ for "license" (couldn't come up with a native word so i decided to take Arabic one, mostly because legal field was the one where Coptic mostly borrowed Arabic words from)
  • ϣⲉⲣⲡⲛⲁⲩ for "preview"

ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 01:02, 9 January 2019 (UTC)Reply

Greetings[edit source]

Many use ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ for 'Hallo', but in Demotic the word for it was apparently ɜw.ṱ=k, which is ⲉⲟⲩⲱⲧⲕ in Coptic. It actually exists as ⲉⲟⲩⲱⲧϥ ⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲉ in an Old Coptic text meaning 'Hail Osiris'. So I thought we could take ⲉⲟⲩⲱⲧⲕ. For 'Goodbye', there is Ḥr sw=k = ϩⲱⲣ ⲥⲟⲩⲕ (literally Horus [be] your protection). Christians and Muslims may say ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲥⲟⲩⲕ instead. And 'ey, hey, yo' is attested as ϩⲁⲓ, ϩⲁⲓⲟ in Coptic. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 16:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Very nice. And finally, we have a good phrase for "Bye". ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:26, 10 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

I am half Greek half Copt and I speak Coptic fluently. In my house we use the word "Ⲉⲟⲩⲱⲧⲕ" for hello. The word "Ⲭⲉⲣⲉ" whick is from Greek "Χαίρε" ("Χαίρω" is the normal verb which means to be glad) is barely used in oral Egyptian. The same is true about "Ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ". We mostly use it for saying "OK". For goodbye, we say "Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ". But except that, we also use "Ϩⲱⲣ ⲥⲟⲩⲕ" but this is used more when we want to say "Fair well" and it is not that common. So you do not have reconstructed Egyptian meanings in Coptic. They already existed. Ϯϣⲉⲡϩ̀ⲙⲟⲧ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ⲛ̀ⲑⲱⲧⲉⲛ. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 07:28, 9 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

I doubt that. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 08:56, 9 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Why are you doubting that, ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ? Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 18:34, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Because you claim ridiculous things you can't prove. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 19:39, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Why is it actually not ϩⲁⲣⲥⲟⲩⲕ? At least in the name Μενθέσουφις (Month is his protection) it seems that the atonic form is needed. But it could be that the phrase didn't behave like a proper noun. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 21:59, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Firstly, ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ are you serious? Why do I have to "prove" that we still use "Ⲉⲟⲩⲱⲧⲕ" and "ϩⲱⲣ ⲥⲟⲩⲕ"? I am a native speaker. I use these phrases in my everyday conversations. Secondly, ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ I was impressed by what you noticed. The truth is I had the same wonder at some point. It seems that this is one extremely rare exception in which two hieroglyphic or Demotic words do not function as one in Coptic. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 12:28, 26 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

You know what I'm talking about. You claim there's "oral Coptic" that preserved "Demotic" words unattested in written sources which is laughable. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:29, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ, um... I do not "claim" it. There are Demotic and Hieroglyphic words in Coptic not attested in written texts. Do you speak Coptic to know? Most Coptic texts where written during the Christianization and Islamization periods. There where Greek words instead of Egyptian. But that does not mean that those Egyptian words have not survived. Most of texts in my language are hieroglyphic. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 17:59, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ok then, how do you know about these words then? "Most of texts in my language are hieroglyphic." Which language? Coptic? Why is it in Hieroglyphic then? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 18:18, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
You say you're Greek then you claim your family is from Zeniya now you're saying "your texts" are Hieroglyphic. What's next? You're the son of Amun Ra? Who are the "older people" you're referring to? People from Zeniya? There's no evidence Zeniya people actually spoke Coptic and many Egyptologists don't trust the reliability of the information gathered by Worrell and Vycichl at all. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 18:25, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Are you all stupid? The language is called "EGYPTIAN". Coptic is just a stage of it, not a different language. Most texts in Egyptian are written in hieroglyphs, not Coptic. I am HALF GREEK HALF EGYPTIAN (learn how to read, I have stated that I am both). My Coptic Egyptian relatives come from Deir Al Maymun and AL Zeniya. Secondly, I do NOT know who Worrell and Vycichl are. Yes, the "older people" I referred to are the elders of Zeniya. I do not care about scholarship. They are quite a mess. I just know that I speak Egyptian (as well as some some people in Zeniya and Deir Al Maymun) and those words survived even though their Greek counterparts are used in written texts. I am referring to "colloquial Egyptian". Written and oral Egyptian are two different stories. Learn to understand what you are 5old.Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 19:35, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ok it says a lot. Could you share some info about your family with us? What is your name and how old are you? How did you parents meet and who your Coptic ancestors were? Because if what you're saying is true your family is a phenomenon which proves that Coptic was never dead. It would be great news. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 20:06, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

My maternal grandfather is a Copt from Deir Al Maymun and my maternal grandmother is also a Copt from Al Zeniyah. Their fathers knew each other because of an incident that occurred (I do not know much about it though, because they never explained it to me). Both of theme where speaking Egyptian as their first language at home and transferred it to my mother as a first language. My mother came to Athens when she was 20 years old, she met my father at 25 and gave birth to me at 30. I am 18 years old and speak Greek and Egyptian at home. My mother told me that in Deir Al Maymun and Al Zeniyah (as well as other isolated villages in Egypt) there are native Coptic speakers. There are Hieroglyphic and Demotic words surviving in Egyptian even though they do not appear in any text. Imagine that there have been no other Coptic texts written for a lot of centuries. The reason Greek words were used is that Greek was the language of the upper classes during the Ptolemaic Era and Egyptian Christianity. Egyptian is alive. There are people who still speak it and Hieroglyphic and Demotic words survive in Coptic. For example, we call the church "ϩⲉⲛⲑⲏⲣ" (from they hieroglyphic words "hwt ntjr"). The term "ⲉⲕⲕⲗⲏⲥⲓⲁ" is rarely used. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 20:28, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Could you please write everything you've just said in Coptic? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ⲥⲉ. Ⲫ̀Ⲓⲱⲧ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ⲧⲁⲙⲁⲩ ⲡⲉ ⲟⲩⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲉⲃⲟⲗϧⲉⲛ ⲇⲏⲓⲣ ⲁⲗ ⲙⲁⲓⲙⲟⲩⲛ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲑ̀ⲙⲁⲩ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ⲧⲁⲙⲁⲩ ⲡⲉ ⲕⲉⲟⲩⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲉⲃⲟⲗϧⲉⲛ ⲁⲗ ⲍⲉⲓⲛⲁϩ. Ⲛⲉⲩⲓⲱⲧ ⲁⲥⲉⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛ ⲛ̀ⲉⲣⲏⲩ ⲉⲑⲃⲉ ⲟⲩⲙⲉⲧϣⲱⲡⲉ ϫⲉ (ϯⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛ ⲁⲛ ⲛ̀ϩⲟⲩⲟ ⲉⲣⲟϥ ⲉⲑⲃⲉ ⲟⲩϫⲱⲓ ⲁⲛ ⲟⲩⲕⲉⲧⲓ). Ⲙ̀ⲡⲉⲥⲛⲁⲩ ⲁⲥⲉⲙⲟⲩϯ ϧⲉⲛ ϯⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛ̀ⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲉϣϫⲉ ⲛⲉⲩⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛ̀ϩⲟⲩⲉⲓⲧ ϧⲉⲛⲏⲓ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲁⲥⲉⲙⲉⲧⲁⲇⲓⲇⲟⲩⲥ̀ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ⲧⲁⲙⲁⲩ ⲉϣϫⲉ ⲟⲩⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛ̀ϩⲟⲩⲉⲓⲧ ⲟⲙⲟⲓⲱⲥ. Ⲧⲁⲙⲁⲩ ⲁⲥⲡⲟⲟⲩⲛⲓ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ⲁⲑⲏⲛⲁⲓ ⲑⲉⲛ ⲛ̀ⲑⲟⲥ ⲁⲥϣⲱⲡⲓ ⲕ̅ ⲛ̀ⲣⲟⲙⲡⲓ,ⲁⲥⲓ ϩⲓⲧⲉⲛ ⲡⲁⲓⲱⲧ ⲑⲉⲛ ⲛ̀ⲑⲟⲥ ⲁⲥϣⲱⲡⲓ ⲕ̅ⲉ̅ ⲛ̀ⲣⲟⲙⲡⲓ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲁⲥ̀ϫⲫⲉ ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ϧⲉⲛ ϯⲣⲟⲙⲡⲓ ⲛ̀ⲗ̅. Ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲡⲉ ⲓ̅ⲏ̅ ⲛ̀ⲣⲟⲙⲡⲓ ⲟⲩⲟϩ Ⲛⲉⲓⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛ ⲙ̀ⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ ⲛⲉⲙ ⲙ̀ⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ϧⲉⲛⲏⲓ. Ⲧⲁⲙⲁⲩ ⲁⲥⲥⲁϫⲓⲓ ⲛ̀ϩⲁⲛⲣⲉϥⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛ̀ϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲇⲏⲓⲣ ⲁⲗ ⲙⲁⲓⲙⲟⲩⲛ ⲛⲉⲙ ⲁⲗ ⲍⲉⲓⲛⲁϩ (ϧⲉⲛ ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲛⲓⲙ ⲛ̀ϩⲁⲛⲭⲱⲣⲓⲟⲛ). Ⲥⲉϣⲱⲡⲓ ϩⲁⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ϩⲓⲧⲉⲛ ϯⲙⲉⲑⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲉⲙ ϯⲙⲉⲧϣⲗⲟⲗ ⲛ̀ⲥⲉⲥⲏⲡⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲕⲩⲡϯⲟⲥ ⲛ̀ⲥⲉϣⲱⲡⲓ ⲁⲛ ϧⲉⲛ ⲛⲓⲙⲉⲧⲥϧⲁⲓ. Ⲕϭⲱⲙ ⲛ̀ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲛⲓⲙ ⲣⲉϥⲥϧⲁⲓ ⲛ̀ϣⲱⲡⲉ ⲁⲛ ϧⲉⲛ ϩⲁⲛⲉⲛⲉϩ ⲛ̀ϩⲁϩ. Ϩⲁⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛ̀ⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ ⲁⲥⲉⲓⲣⲓ ⲉⲑⲃⲉ ϫⲉ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲓⲛ ⲁⲥϣⲱⲡⲓ ϯⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛ̀ⲛⲓⲣⲉϥϣⲱⲡⲥ ϣⲱ ⲡⲓⲉⲛⲉϩ ⲛ̀ⲡⲧⲟⲗⲉⲙⲁⲓⲟⲥ ⲛⲉⲙ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲭⲣⲓⲥϯⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ ⲛ̀ⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ. Ϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲥ̀ⲱⲛϧ. Ⲟⲩϣⲱⲡⲓ ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲣⲱⲙⲓ ⲛ̀ⲛⲉⲥⲉⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛⲥ̀ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ϩⲁⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛ̀ϯⲙⲉⲑⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛⲉⲙ ϯⲛⲉⲧϣⲗⲟⲗ ⲥⲉϣⲱⲡⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ϯⲙⲉⲕⲩⲡϯⲟⲥ. Ⲉⲧⲱ ⲛⲉⲛⲭⲣⲁⲥⲩⲉ ⲙ̀ⲡⲓⲥⲁϫⲓ "ϩⲉⲛⲑⲏⲣ". Ⲡⲓⲥⲁϫⲓ "ⲉⲕⲕⲗⲏⲥⲓⲁ", ⲟⲩⲥⲩⲛⲱⲛⲩⲙⲟⲥϥ̀, ⲁϥⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ ⲟⲩⲕⲉⲧⲓ. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 22:15, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

You don't know the Coptic names of Dayr al-Maymun and Zeniya? And why do you use a weird ⲥⲩⲛⲱⲛⲩⲙⲟⲥ instead a logical ⲥⲩⲛⲱⲛⲩⲙⲟⲛ? I'm not talking about the grammatical things, it's your own "dialect". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 11:34, 29 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Deir Al Maymun-from what I know-had a Coptic name ("ⲡϣ̀ⲫⲏⲣ") but it is not used anymore. "Ⲥⲩⲛⲱⲛⲩⲙⲟⲥ" is no different from "ⲥⲩⲛⲱⲛⲩⲙⲟⲛ". It is like the words "ⲯⲩⲭⲓⲕⲟⲥ" and "ⲯⲩⲭⲓⲥⲟⲛ". Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 12:15, 29 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
Nice, and you usually say ⲛⲉⲩⲓⲱⲧ ⲁⲥⲉⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛ ... instead of ⲁⲛⲉⲩⲓⲱⲧ ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ ...? And ⲁϥⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ instead of ⲁϥⲉⲣⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 22:50, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, we do say "ⲛⲉⲩⲓⲱⲧ ⲁⲥⲉⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛ", which I think is more conservative (used before the Demotic period, I told you guys we use a lot of older vocabulary and grammar), while "ⲁⲛⲉⲩⲓⲱⲧ ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ" is clearly post-Demotic (I mean that it was introduced during the Demotic period) . And as for "ⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ" and "ⲉⲣⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ", we use both. "Ⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ" is already a verb. It comes from the Greek verb "χρώμαι" which means "to use". Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 05:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, but this doesn’t make sense. If you try to speak older Egyptian, why don’t you use ⲓⲟϯ for the plural? Why don’t you use suffix possessive pronouns? And ⲛⲉⲩⲓⲱⲧ ⲁⲥⲉⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛ is neither "older" nor "correct". In fact, it is just a later, very late Coptic stage of ⲁⲛⲉⲩⲓⲱⲧ ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ (which was never prescriptively recommended), where the subject gets repeated, to avoid the “complicated” split of the past construction. I’m a bit worried that you say that. ⲁⲛⲉⲩⲓⲱⲧ ⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ represents the Demotic jr.f sdm past tense, which is indeed a newer form not found in earlier Egyptian. But the old way to express past tense events, sdm.f, does not live in ⲛⲉⲩⲓⲱⲧ ⲁⲥⲉⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛ. The Coptic outcome of the sdm.f past with the meaning “my parents knew…” would be ⲥⲟⲩⲉⲛ ⲛⲉⲩⲓⲟϯ (not using suffix possessive pronouns). And yeah, ⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ is already a verb, but in Bohairic it nevertheless it said ⲉⲣⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ. Maybe you don’t like Bohairic, but that’s still the dialect which is used today among almost every Copt. Please keep that in mind. You can write whatever in the discussions, but if you write an article, it may get changed. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Categories of time[edit source]

Hello everyone. Does anybody know if Coptic has genuine words for categories as "past", "future" etc? --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 16:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Ok, so i've found these terms in Sahidic New Testament – "present" is "ⲉⲧϣⲟⲟⲡ" (ⲉⲧϣⲱⲡ in Bohairic), future is "ⲉⲧⲛⲁϣⲱⲡⲉ" (ⲉⲧⲛⲁϣⲱⲡⲓ in Bohairic i suppose) and past is ⲡⲉⲟⲩⲟⲉⲓϣ ⲛⲧⲁϥⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛⲉ (ⲡⲓⲥⲏⲟⲩ ⲉⲧⲁϥⲥⲓⲛⲓ in Bohairic i also suppose or maybe we could even shorten it to just ⲉⲧⲁϥⲥⲓⲛⲓ?) ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 00:43, 4 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

"Half-" as in half-brother and peninsula[edit source]

Would it be OK if we use ϫⲉⲥ- instead of ⲫⲁϣ-? So ϫⲉⲥⲙⲟⲩⲓ for peninsula for instance? Also, I'm not sure if we should translate "half-brother" literally. It seems to be a Western European expression which sounds unfamiliar to Egyptian ears. But please let's have a discussion about that too but if we don't come up with something better I guess we could introduce it into Coptic.

So, as far as ⲫⲁϣ- is concerned, it has also the sense of "divided" or "dividing" and whereas ϫⲉⲥ- is exclusively "half". But more importantly, it is mostly ϫⲉⲥ- which is traditionally used in these "half-, semi-" constructions. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 21:16, 19 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

You're right, ϫⲉⲥ- is better then ⲫⲁϣ- in these cases. As for "half-brother", i understand you, it sounds weird to Russian ear as well, if you think about it. In Russian we have different words for maternal and paternal siblings (would be literally "womb brother" and "blood brother"). I don't know about Arabic synonyms for these, but maybe we should stick to them. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 23:10, 19 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Oh, I just remembered that Coptic actually has the terms ϣⲉⲛⲓⲱⲧ and ϣⲉⲛⲙⲁⲩ, literally meaning 'son (or actually also daughter) of the father' and 'son (daughter) of the mother', respectively. So what is implied here is that one shares the same father or mother with somebody. (Also recorded in Crum's Coptic dictionary). In my understanding, this refers to half-brother/sister. The only problem we would have here that Coptic doesn't distinguish the gender of the half-sibling, but the parent the have in common. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 23:37, 19 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Can I change it? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 12:47, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply
Yes, of course. ϣⲉⲛⲓⲱⲧ and ϣⲉⲛⲙⲁⲩ are much better too. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 14:28, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Reply

Rights and rules[edit source]

In Demotic these two words have a similar structure – tp-nfr for right (like in human's rights) and tp-rd for rule (as game rules). Two second parts are obvious (ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ and ⲣⲏϯ). The first part means "upon" and is attested in Oxyrhynchite dialect as ⲧⲃⲁⲓ- (in ⲧⲃⲁⲓⲧⲱⲟⲩ, epithet of Anubis). I'm not good in dialects but wouldn't it be something like ⲧⲃⲟⲓ- in Bohairic (so ⲧⲃⲟⲓⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ/ⲧⲃⲟⲛⲟⲩϥⲓ and ⲧⲃⲟⲓⲣⲏϯ)? ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 22:41, 3 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

tp as an unstressed compound would most likely be ⲧⲃ-, the diphtong is from tp-y. I'm not sure, however, how it would work out in the word tp-nfr. The more common words in Demotic for right, but also rule and justice are hp (ϩⲁⲡ) and m3'(.t) (ⲙⲏⲓ), both of which also have other meanings. Greek ⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲱⲙⲁ is also used for "right" but I guess you're looking for a genuine Egyptian word. The problem is, if I'm not pretty sure that I can reconstruct the word I tend to rather not use it because I dont wanna introduce false words. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 00:58, 4 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
You're right, we shouldn't introduce false words for sure. The problem with ϩⲁⲡ is that it's rather "legal law" equal to greek ⲛⲟⲙⲟⲥ, and ⲙⲏⲓ is more like "truth, justice". As you said, i was thinking more about equivalent of ⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲱⲙⲁ. What if we take the same words i've mentioned above but construct them anew with words attested in Bohairic (like ϩⲓϫⲉⲛ)? ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 22:44, 5 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
But is it certain that in these cases we deal with tp in the sense of "upon"? It could also be tp in the sense of "first; choice; beginning". ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:12, 7 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
Now when i think of it it actually makes more sense with "first; choice; beginning" meanings. As for tp-nfr as "first goods" in sense of "essential" and for tp-rd as "chosen way" cause rule is literally a regulated way we choose to do something. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 00:21, 8 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Re- as in rebuild or reform[edit source]

What should we use for creating forms like that? I thought about ⲟⲛ- and even used it a few times but now it doesn't look right to me at all. Maybe somebody knows more legit way to render this re- in Egyptian? ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 00:13, 8 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

It would definitely be a neologism for Coptic, but it seems we need to create one if we don't want to use foreign material. On the other hand, Arabic doesnt have such a prefix either and renders these nouns differently , case by case, i.e. with "second", or "again". We could use ⲟⲛ in the same way, but not as a prefix. If we say that ⲟⲛ is used as a prefix, and if it would be unstressed, it would turn to ⲁⲛ- (which would coincidentally look like the Greek prefix for re-). However, it seems the re-prefix is also stressed in English and other languages, which speaks for ⲟⲛ- (although two stressed compounds, prefix and base word, is really really weird in Coptic). Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 15:08, 14 November 2018 (UTC)Reply

Wp/cop/ⲥⲟⲗⲕ[edit source]

There is already a word for 'snow': ⲥⲟⲗⲕ (not to mention the Greek borrowing). Does anyone know where ⲙⲟⲩⲟϫⲉⲃ comes from? Any etymology? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Just a bad coinage. You're right, there's already a word for snow – ⲡⲓⲭⲓⲱⲛ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 11:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Whose coinage? Can I delete it? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

ⲉⲑϥⲱ ⲉⲧⲉ ⲫⲁⲓ ⲡⲉ ⲃⲁϣⲟⲩⲣ[edit source]

I guess there is no urgent need for another word, as Coptic has already two words for saw: ⲃⲁϣⲟⲩⲣ and, in Sahidic also, ⲗⲉⲛⲑⲏⲛ. (The Vocabularium Coptico-Latinum et Latino-Copticum additionally says the former designates a smaller saw, while the latter means a larger one)

ⲃⲁϣⲟⲩⲣ is a loan from Semitic, but it already appears in Demotic bšwl.

But if you ever wondered what the hieroglyphic Egyptian tf3, or better jtf3, would yield in Coptic, the name is preserved in Old Coptic ϩⲉⲧϥⲱⲟⲩⲓ < ḥawat jitfá3 wurir, written ḥw.t jtf3 wrr "Temple of the Great Saw", a temple for Osiris near Heliopolis. Accordingly, *jitfá3 would yield ⲉⲑϥⲱ in Bohairic. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 12:59, 12 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ, we actually use the word "ⲉⲑϥⲱ" for "saw". Some older people might call it "ⲉⲧⲃⲱ" or "ⲉⲑⲃⲱ". PS: I speak Coptic fluently. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 14:06, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Where are you? I wonder where people speak Coptic fluenty. I don't doubt that some people speak it fluently, but if you say these old words survive it must come from a continuous tradition which would be astonishing. Also, if you speak Coptic fluently, feel free to respond in Coptic. I understand it. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 21:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ, I am Half Greek half Egyptian (Copt, ethically not religiously because I am a Greek Orthodox in religion). I speak Coptic at home with some members of my family. I live in Greece so Arabic was never actually "needed" to learn even though most Copts speak Arabic. Anyways, there are a lot of hieroglyphic and Demotic words that survive in oral Coptic, while Greek words are only in literary texts and are never used. If we want to speak more formally, we would use Coptic words of direct hieroglyphic origin and not found in Coptic texts of the 2nd-3rd century C.E. Oral Coptic is much much richer than written Coptic. We preserve the pronunciation, grammar and vocabulary of our ancestors. And actually most of the words you are trying to "reconstruct" in Coptic are actually used and exist. Thank you. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 22:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Furthermore, we use pure Egyptian words for meanings that are described by their Greek counterpart in written Egyptian. For example we call the church "ϩⲉⲛⲑⲏⲣ" instead of "ⲉⲕⲕⲗⲏⲥⲓⲁ" (Greek: εκκλησία). Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 22:58, 25 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

ⲕⲁⲧⲁⲕⲱⲧⲉ / ⲕⲁⲧⲁⲕⲟⲓⲧⲉ[edit source]

It is unclear what this word means in the Old Coptic manuscript PGM IV, line 117. It could be that it is ultimately derived from hierogylphic k3.t 'vagina'. But how could we derive a feminine Coptic noun ⲕⲱϯ from it (and if so, why not Bohairic ⲭⲱϯ?) ? As Demotic k3y(.t), ky3 shows, it was a normal feminine noun which lost its dental ending long before Coptic started to be written. The Demotic evidence may point to ⲭⲱⲓ, but I'm not 100% certain. As regards ⲕⲁⲧⲁⲕⲱⲧⲉ / ⲕⲁⲧⲁⲕⲟⲓⲧⲉ, it could be that this is a reduplication, and that the base Old Coptic ⲕⲱⲧ- really means vagina. The dental could have been preserved if the word was often used with a possessive suffix, i.e. k3.t-s 'her vagina', which helped to preserve the dental. Then it would be some old Coptic ⲕⲱⲧⲥ (?), where the possessive suffix was then removed again, and a new word ⲕⲱⲧ was created. This would look masculine, which is corroborated by the fact that ⲕⲁⲧⲁⲕⲱⲧⲉ / ⲕⲁⲧⲁⲕⲟⲓⲧⲉ used the masculine article. But I cannot explain the feminine ending ⲉ. All in all, this seems a bit too insecure to treat it as certain. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think it's safe just to use ⲡⲓⲕⲱⲓϩ "sheath". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Alphabet Order[edit source]

So, apart from the pretty clear ⲁ ⲃ ⲇ ⲅ , etc, do we follow the standard Coptologist/Egyptologist order or the "normal" one? E.g. ⲡⲁⲥⲭⲁ ⲡⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲡⲁⲧϣⲉⲗⲉⲧ (Coptologist, where the vowels are only used for secondary distiniction), or the Western one which gives the vowels more importance: ⲡⲁⲥⲭⲁ ⲡⲁⲧϣⲉⲗⲉⲧ ⲡⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ. Any thoughts? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Measurements[edit source]

ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ, how do we write measurements in Coptic? Do we write it like كيلو in Arabic, and western languages? Or do we take the Greek etymological source khilio-. Does that mean we write it ⲕⲓⲗⲟ or ⲭⲓⲗⲟ or ⲭⲓⲗⲓⲟ in Coptic? Thanks for your help. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 23:22, 27 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Reply[edit source]

ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ, whenever we refer to "kilo-" we use the native word for thousand which is "ϣⲟ". For example, kilogram is "ϣⲉⲅⲣⲁⲙⲙⲁ". Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 12:04, 26 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

ϯⲇⲏⲙⲟⲅⲣⲁⲫⲓⲁ = ϯⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛϣⲗⲟⲗ = علم السكان[edit source]

I used ⲡⲓⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛϣⲗⲟⲗ as the Coptic word for ϯⲇⲏⲙⲟⲅⲣⲁⲫⲓⲁ . Let me know if you have other suggestions ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:41, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Shouldn't it be ⲙⲉⲧⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛϣⲗⲱⲗ? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 09:06, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Oh yes, definitely. ⲡⲓⲥⲁⲟⲩⲛϣⲗⲱⲗ = person who studies demography. Demograph? I don't know the word. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:51, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Oh and do you mean ϣⲗⲟⲗ in the singular or plural? I had it in the singular, but you prefer the plural ϣⲗⲱⲗ? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:07, 9 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Subdivisions[edit source]

"ⲓⲉⲃ" is used here for "markaz" مركز while this type of subdivision (a territory nearby the city) is usually ⲕⲁϩⲓ or ⲕⲁϩ- in Coptic. See ⲕⲁϩⲕⲱⲟⲩ, ⲧⲕⲁϩϣⲙⲓⲛ, ⲕⲁϩⲥⲓⲱⲟⲩⲧ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

But you do know that ⲕⲁϩⲓ is "earth" and it is not useful to use it for both senses? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 15:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Why? "the land of Shmin" ⲧⲕⲁϩϣⲙⲓⲛ makes perfect sense to me. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:24, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

But ⲕⲁϩⲓ is used for planet earth ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 15:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

It has plenty of meanings just like English "land". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:50, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
I wish you had said that with ⲑⲟ... Are you just trying to be antithetical? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 15:54, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Whatever we end up using, it would be good to keep it apart. But in case we change words here, be aware that it amounts to massive amounts of editing we need to do. Given that, is there anything else we can use to describe these subdivisions? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:46, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think ⲕⲁϩⲓ is the best option as it's attested in this sense (and multiple times). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:50, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Oh so we were using ⲓⲏⲃ, ⲓⲉⲃ for markaz? That's fine with me although it is not attested in that sense. What about translating markaz as ⲙⲏϯ? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't think we have to translate it as it is ("center" I mean). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 18:58, 8 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

And how do we prevent confusion between the meaning markaz and Wp/cop/ⲕⲁϩⲓ ? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:38, 9 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Oh I just found out (again), that ⲕⲁϩⲓ in the sense of "earth" is masculine, and ⲕⲁϩⲓ in the sense of district is feminine! If we stick to the distinction, I think it is no problem to keep both senses with distinctive genders. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:42, 9 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Sounds good. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 09:42, 9 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Riverbank, shore ضفة النهر[edit source]

Is there a Coptic word for "riverbank, shore"? If not, we can use Bohairic ⲓⲧⲉⲃ (masculine noun). Peust 2010: 50f (Die Toponyme vorarabischen Ursprungs im modernen Ägypten) assumes ⲉⲓⲧⲃ for Sahidic, ⲉⲓⲧⲃⲉ for Akhmimic to explain the etymology of the town Idfa. In hieroglyphs, the word is written jdb. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:18, 21 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

There is ⲙⲏⲣ "shore of river", ⲭⲣⲟ "shore, further side, limit ― of sea, river", ⲕⲏ "meaning unknown, ? river-bank", Ϧⲁⲓⲟⲣ "canal (? river) bank" (all from Crum). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 10:12, 21 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Yeah I checked it too, they all meant something else too or had an insecure meaning so I thought they're not perfect. But at least they're attested, and I don't have strong feelings about it. For the town of Idfa, we take ⲓⲧⲉⲃ? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:49, 21 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
It's actually a big question if we should use a dialectal form of the toponyms or "Boharize" them if we don't have a Bohairic form. I'd use the mixed approach – if we have a Bohairic name then we use it, if we don't – we use a dialectal form that was the base of the modern Arabic pronunciation. It will reflect a dialectal presence in this area and will generally enrich the language with some dialectal features which in case of the complete death of Coptic dialects would be nice. So in case of Idfa I'd take dialectal Akhmimic ⲉⲓⲧⲃⲉ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:07, 22 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
But ⲉⲓⲧⲃⲉ isn't attested either. We know the descendant of jdb must have existed in Coptic because of Graeco-Roman and Arabic attestations, but the actual Coptic word is unattested. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:12, 22 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Right, what I meant is that in this case I'd take ⲉⲓⲧⲃⲉ because it reflects the modern pronunciation which was surely taken from Akhmimic. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:26, 22 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
I think we should use ⲓⲧⲉⲃ and then write that ⲉⲓⲧⲃⲉ is the local pronunciation. I'm not sure if we always know if this or that place name is actually attested in Bohairic, or whether it was a Sahidic text; what if it turns out that ϣⲙⲓⲛ is only found in Sahidic texts and it is just what (certainly correctly assumed) would also be the Bohairic form. Would we need to call the city here ⳉⲙⲓⲙ then? I see other Wikipedias which have slightly different dialects, where you can chose in which dialect you write your article (for instance https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Houptsyte_(Schwyzerd%C3%BCtsch) and https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Houptsyte_(Elsassisch) for their Swiss and French German dialects), but I think that is only for later, now we should focus on Bohairic. But when this Wikipedia is accepted, then people could write articles in Sahidic and Akhmimic too. There are actually Coptic enthusiasts from Southern Egypt who say that they are more interested in Sahidic because it is their original local dialect. But in the Bohairic version, I would take the Bohairic name as the title of the article. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 18:15, 22 July 2020 (UTC)Reply
Yes, that is a point. It looks more practical to me to consequently use the Bohairic term. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:59, 23 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

We use all six words for the meaning of "riverbank, shore" (kind of). "Ⲓⲑⲉⲃ (not" ⲓⲧⲉⲃ" as you wrote it), ⲙⲏⲣ, ⲕⲏ" mean "riverbank". "Ϧⲁⲓⲟⲣ" means "canal" and "ⲭⲣⲟ" means "bay". Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 12:12, 26 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

ⲉⲑⲃⲉ ⲟⲩ ⲕⲥϧⲁⲓ ϫⲉ ⲓⲉⲃ? ⲟⲩ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲓϩⲱⲃ `ⲛⲑⲏⲧⲁ? ⲕⲁⲧⲁ ϯⲉⲧⲩⲙⲟⲗⲟⲅⲓⲁ `ⲛⲧⲉ ⲡⲓⲥⲁϫⲓ (jdb `ⲙⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ `ⲛⲥϧⲁⲓ `ⲛⲥⲫⲣⲁⲛϣ) ϯⲟⲣⲑⲟⲅⲣⲁⲫⲓⲁ ⲕⲁⲧⲁ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲕⲩⲡϯⲟⲥ `ⲛⲧⲉ ⲡⲉⲙϩⲓⲧ ⲡⲉ ⲓⲉⲃ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 02:11, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ, Ⲁⲛⲟⲕ ⲥⲟⲟⲩⲛ ⲁⲛ. Ⲁⲗⲗⲁ ⲛⲉⲛⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ ⲙ̀ⲡⲁⲓ ⲥⲁϫⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲕⲩⲡϯⲓⲟⲥ. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Coptic word about the sun disc and the horizon.[edit source]

First and foremost, I am a fluent Coptic speaker. In oral tradition there are many folktales about Aten. The word we use is "ⲁⲑⲟⲩⲛ" or "ⲁϭⲟⲩⲛ". We also have a word for the Moon (except "ⲓⲟϩ") "ⲁⲑⲟⲩⲛ ⲛ̀ϧⲁⲙⲱ" which means "silver Aten".

For the meaning of horizon (akhet) we use the word "ⲁϣⲓ". See the Sphynx ("ϩⲁⲣⲙⲁϣⲓ"). Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 20:26, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

But why ⲁⲑⲟⲩⲛ or ⲁϭⲟⲩⲛ? Shouldn't the Coptic cognate of Aten be more close to Wp/cop/ⲓⲱⲧ (ⲛⲟⲩϯ)? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 01:53, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

"Ⲓⲱⲧ"? That means "father" in Egyptian. The hieroglyphic word for the sun disc is "jtn". All hieroglyphic words starting with "i/j" become "ⲁ" in Coptic (from what I have readen and observed and explained). I know that the hieroglyphic "t" stays the same in Sahidic. I do not speak Sahidic but a dialect close to older Coptic [more specifically Coptic spoken in AL Zeniyah and Deir AL Maymun (the villages I come from), Bohairic is kind of a constructed dialect by the church] . In this dialect we turn the "t" in "ⲑ" or "ϭ". About the "ⲛ", we actually preserve it at the end of the word. It is not like the hieroglyphic letters "t" and "r". Thus, "ⲁⲑⲟⲩⲛ" and "ⲁϭⲟⲩⲛ". Some older people might also say "ⲁⲑⲱⲛ". Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 09:41, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it's homonymous with "father". The n in jtn was already lost early in Egyptian: jatin > jati > iōt - I don't see how it would survive in Coptic, and the vowel ⲟⲩ in the second syllable is also unexpected. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:14, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

I do not know. But I am telling you, we call it "ⲁⲑⲟⲩⲛ".Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 18:02, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Maybe someone invented it on basis of "Aton", which is a common form in some languages for "Aten". But it cannot be directly derived from Ancient Egyptian, because of the reasons stated by Ahmed above. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 18:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

So, I gave a second look about this issue. You are actually right. "Ⲁⲑⲟⲩⲛ" is a reintroduced term for the Sun disc derived from Greek "Ατόν". The original Egyptian word for Aten is indeed closer to "ⲓⲱⲧ". Thank you for helping me understand it. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 05:32, 29 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ⲟⲩⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛ̀ϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲙ̀ⲃⲉⲣⲓ ⲉϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲱ ⲙ̀ⲡⲓⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛ̀ⲁⲡⲁⲥ "wadjat".[edit source]

Ⲁ Ⲛⲓⲣⲉⲙⲛ̀ⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲛ̀ⲁⲡⲁⲥ ⲉⲣⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ ⲙ̀ⲡⲓⲥⲁϫⲓ "wadjat" ⲉϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲱ ⲛ̀ⲡⲓⲃⲁⲗ ⲛ̀ϥ̀ⲣⲓⲙⲉ ⲛ̀ϩⲱⲣ ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲛ̀ⲁⲡⲁⲥ. Ⲁϯⲙⲉⲩⲓ ⲉⲣⲟ ⲧⲉⲛ ⲧⲁⲙⲓⲟ ⲟⲩⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲉⲧⲁⲓ ⲛ̀ϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲱ. Ⲛⲓⲙ ⲧⲉⲧⲉⲛⲙⲉⲩⲓ ⲉⲣⲟϥ? Ϯϣⲉⲡϩ̀ⲙⲟⲧ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ⲛ̀ⲑⲱⲧⲉⲛ. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 21:08, 26 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

(English version)[edit source]

The ancient Egyptians used the word "wadjat" for the meaning of the uninjured eye of the ancient God Horus. I thought that we should coin a word for that meaning. What do you think? Thank you. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 08:39, 29 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

My thoughts[edit source]

In Coptic, we do not have a word for this meaning. We do have a word for the injured eye ("ϣⲱⲭⲥ" < "khqst", I do not know why it became like this, I just know the word). Anyway, the word-root is "wadjat". Can you help me reconstruct the word? Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 08:58, 29 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Female sun disc godess[edit source]

There is the word for Aten ("ⲓⲱⲧ"). Let us reconstruct the name of the godess taking into consideration the words we use for "God" and "goddess", "Ⲛⲟⲩϯ" and "Ⲛⲑⲱⲣⲓ". I was thinking something like "ⲁⲑⲱⲛⲓ" since the word is "itnt" (


).Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 21:32, 29 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

We don't know how "jtnt" was vocalized, but given that the male "jtj" is ⲓⲱⲧ, ⲁⲑⲱⲛⲓ doesn't sound right. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 00:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Predynastic rulers of Egypt[edit source]

Here are some Coptic names for the rulers before Ⲙⲏⲛⲓ/Ⲛⲁⲣⲙⲉⲣ.

Upper Egypt:

Ⲫⲛⲁⲃ Elephant/Pen-Abu,

ⲕⲟ/ϭⲁⲙ Bull,

Ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ Scorpion I/Serket

Ⲉⲣϩⲱⲣ Iry-Hor,

Ⲭⲟ Ka, Ⲥⲱϣⲛ Sekhen[1][2] or Ϩⲁⲣⲭⲁ Horus Ka

Ⲟⲩⲱϩⲓ[3] Scorpion II/Weha.

I will also try to reconstruct the names of the Lower Egyptian rulers.

Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 09:43, 14 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

It would be great to reconstruct the names of predynastic rulers. But I'm not sure if all of them are correct. Horus Ka, if this was his real name, would rather be ϩⲁⲣⲭⲟ. And with Scorpion, I think it must have been a masculine name. Ⲟⲩⲱϩⲓ is female. But is it certain if it was wḥˁ or srq? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 23:55, 15 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I actually agree with you. So about Scorpion I and II, should we just call them as ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ ⲡⲓⲙⲁϩⲁ̅ and ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ ⲡⲓⲙⲁϩⲃ̅? I think that this suits too. Ⲟⲩⲱϩⲓ is indeed a feminine term but it was the only word I thought could suit (I do not even remember if there is a masculine counterpart). Last but not least, yes Ϩⲁⲣⲭⲟ seems more correct than Ϩⲁⲣⲭⲁ, but I was trying to stick to the hieroglyphic transliteration of the word "k3". My bad, sorry. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 23:18, 16 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I only found ⲟⲩⲟϩⲓ in Bohairic, with Omikron, not Omega. Both words for 'scorpion' ( wḥˁt , srqt ) are feminine in Egyptian. So, the problem is not solved with *ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (and I'm not sure if that would be the outcome of srqt) either. Assuming the vocalization wâḥiˁat, the outcome should indeed be ⲟⲩⲱϩⲓ, but this is not attested. Vycichl assumes that there was a change from wâḥiˁat > wâḥḥa(t) > wa3ḥa, explaining the extent spellings (e.g. Bohairic ⲟⲩⲟϩⲓ). If wâḥiˁat was indeed original, then the masculine word should be wâḥiˁ. If we don't assume the changes here as in the feminine, this would yield ⲟⲩⲱϩ in Bohairic. As regards slqt, ⲉ in an initial stressed syllable in Bohairic in genuine Egyptian words looks odd. It happens, but we should do more research. Also, we should make sure that the voiceless stop in srqt would actually show up as ⲕ. It probably does in this case, but we should be careful. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:06, 18 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Actually, in the dialect I speak we say "ⲟⲩⲱϩⲓ" apart from "ⲟⲩⲟϩⲓ". Yes, they are feminine, but the name of the kings (this is also mentioned in Wkipedia) is linked to the goddess Selket. But, in Coptic, since there is no masculine counterpart, we should coin a word. I recommend something like ⲥⲏⲗⲕ or ⲥⲏⲣⲕ (I put the ⲏ there because Seth in Coptic is ⲥⲏⲧ and pharaoh Seti is ⲥⲏϯ). So, we could just go for ⲥⲏⲗⲕ ⲡⲓⲙⲁϩⲁ̅ and ⲥⲏⲗⲕ ⲡⲓⲙⲁϩⲃ̅. As for ⲟⲩⲱϩ, there is already such a word and it means "dwell, be enclosed somewhere". Even so, we could use that word as an alternative name for Scorpion II. Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 09:06, 18 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

It can be that same people write ⲟⲩⲱϩⲓ, but the word in line with the other dialects is ⲟⲩⲟϩⲓ. As regards Seth, the masculine nisba would not show up in Coptic anymore because of certain sound changes, so the king's name falls together with the divine name in Coptic: ⲥⲏⲧ, e.g. Wp/cop/ⲥⲏⲧ, Wp/cop/ⲥⲏⲧ ⲡⲓϣⲟⲣⲡ.

OK then. So are we going to stick to the words "ⲟⲩⲱϩ" and "ⲥⲉⲣⲕ" for the names of the 2 Scorpions? Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 23:47, 18 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Given that the Greeks called the goddess "Selkis", I think we should take into account the lateral consonant. But we still don't know what Selkis would be in Bohairic. ⲥⲉⲗⲕⲓ? ⲥⲉⲗϫⲓ? Or am I too complicated here? And would we need to suppose a consonant change for the masculine version, thus ⲥⲏⲗⲕ, ⲥⲏⲗϫ? I don't know yet. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I asked my relatives about that. There is the Coptic name "ⲥⲏⲗⲕ" (used in Deir Al Maymun) which means "Scorpion". So, should we go with that? Ⲙⲉⲑⲣⲏ (talk) 09:47, 20 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Grammatical terms[edit source]

Maybe it would be good to have a grammar section in the Wikipedia too. For that, we would need some grammatical terms so we can talk about Coptic grammar. Any ideas for "noun", verb", etc? Given how it is called in Arabic and other languages, a derivation from "to do" for "verb" would be appropriate. In some Germanic languages, "verb" literally means "work word" or "doing word". Thus, we could say ⲥⲁϫⲓ `ⲛⲓⲣⲓ? Again taking into account Arabic and others, we could use ⲥⲁϫⲓ `ⲛⲣⲁⲛ for "noun". Any ideas for these or other grammatical terminology? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 17:04, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Formatting[edit source]

I need to admit, I liked the format of this list better we had at the very beginning. Now, when we want to add a word, we need to work on the whole text, and we cannot just click edit under the very letter with which the word starts we want to add. Anybody has ideas to make it easier to manage, especially if the list grows and grows? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 17:27, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

OC[edit source]

There's a bunch of Old Coptic words that we could "Boharize" if we don't have a suitable alternative – ϩⲁⲙⲉⲩ (from ḥnmmt, means "sun-folk", "people of a certain location (especially Egypt) or "humankind" in general); ⲡⲏ (from pꜥt, patricians, elite); ⲗϧⲏ (rḫyt, plebeians, commoners – Bohairic equivalent ⲭⲁⲙⲉⲟⲥ); ϣⲃⲏ (from šfyt, majesty - ⲙⲉⲅⲉⲑⲟⲥ); ϣⲁⲡϣⲓ (from špst, noblewoman); ⲥⲣⲟ (from zrj, ram); ⲥⲏⲃ (from sbj, rebel - ⲁⲡⲟⲥⲧⲁⲧⲏⲥ). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:32, 13 February 2021 (UTC)Reply

Yes, great idea. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:26, 16 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
  1. Template:Citation.
  2. Jürgen von Beckerath: Handbuch der ägyptischen Königsnamen, Münchner ägyptologische Studien, Heft 49, Mainz : P. von Zabern, 1999, Template:ISBN, available online Template:Webarchive see p. 36-37
  3. ϧⲉⲛ ϯϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ⲫⲣⲏⲥ ⲟⲩⲟⲟϩⲉ https://coptic-dictionary.org/entry.cgi?tla=C5302