Talk:Wp/cnr/Početna stranica

From Wikimedia Incubator
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Comment from Incubator administrator[edit]

  1. This test is tentatively permitted as the code is apparently in process of approval. If the code is not approved in the January 2018 approval cycle (or if there is not evidence from outside Montenegro that the code is going into the January 2019 approval cycle), the test is subject to deletion.
  2. If the code is approved, this community will undoubtedly be anxious to build the project as quickly as possible. And despite the substantial political/national-ethnic protestations that this is a different language, there is no question that the language is at minimum very close to Serbian. So content can be copied in (and adapted slightly if necessary) from Serbian Wikipedia (or others). You will need to import a template like sr:Шаблон:Преведено, and put it on the talk page of any page that is substantially copied in from Serbian Wikipedia (or others). This is necessary for licensing documentation purposes. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:53, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Migration of Articles from previously active test wiki[edit]

Crnogorska_Enciklopedija (w:Crnogorska Enciklopedija)

I am about to look for backups of our test Wiki there is possible several thousands of unique articles that where contributed to Montenegrin Wiki that can be used to add into incubator.

Who ever works on this project leave means of contact and come by to https://forum.cdm.me/ where we could address a way to do this. My username there is Ego_and_his_own --Ego and his own (talk) 21:41, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm going to suggest you wait until the language code is officially approved before undertaking any major importing initiative. That said, if the licensing of that site is acceptable under WMF's licensing rules, it's possible that one of the experienced people here could do a mass import. Language code, if it's happening, should be finalized in about a month. Please just be a little more patient. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:29, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
All articles where under Creative Commons. I will not be able to do it(look into backups) anyway before 29. December there are several issues that need to be addressed as we didnt have back then unicode but instead we used some other encoding for mysql database. if you know any tools that I could use for doing this change of encoding let me know. --Ego and his own (talk) 01:28, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg and @SPQRobin: Any thoughts on tools?
Ego (and all): Do any prep work elsewhere that you need to do now. Don't do a lot of importing here until the code is finalized. Until that happens, you risk my deleting everything if the code approval doesn't happe. Thanks. StevenJ81 (talk) 01:37, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
I have my server for that purpose. I dont know why do you think code will not be provided and that this will be deleted. But thanks for the tip. Cheers! --Ego and his own (talk) 01:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Better to have this direct link to a thread Wikipedija na crnogorskom jeziku at forum.cdm.me, so potential contributors don't wonder around.--Rovoobob (talk) 00:54, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks but I mistakenly was thinking that Admin here is Montenegrin person. I see that is not the case. --Ego and his own (talk) 02:12, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Some of the articles can be accessed through here Glavna stranica by clicking on Wiki links there. Can be a good base for articles with somee updates. Like:

  1. Bokokotorski zaliv
  2. Vrmac
  3. Tivat
  4. Kotor
  5. Kategorija: Crna Gora
  6. Biografije, etc.--Rovoobob Razgovor 01:47, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Rules and timeline going forward[edit]

@Ego and his own and others: I make no assumptions one way or the other. I think perhaps I should just lay out the rules and likely timeline going forward:

1. Presumption that the code will, in fact, be approved[edit]

  • As administrator on Incubator, I'm allowing this test project to start, even though the code has not been officially approved and published yet. I do so because there is a reasonable amount of evidence that the code will be approved in the January 2018 release of approvals. I didn't have to allow the test yet, because there is not yet a formal approval. So don't assume I have bad faith here.
  • That said, what I have seen so far is the following:
    (a) Reports in the Montenegrin media that someone at the US Library of Congress (probably the ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee) has approved a code. At most, that will lead SIL to make a formal code approval when it does its next round of approvals. That is not, in and of itself, a code formally approved by SIL.
    (b) Reports here, generally from people with a bias, that SIL "says" that a code will be approved this year.
All of that is fine, and was enough evidence for me to (1) allow this test project to open, and (2) move the formal request on Meta from "discussion" to "on hold".
  • That said, the code is not considered approved for our purposes at Wikimedia until SIL publishes it as an approved, active code on its web site. It normally does that in January of each year, and it is that next set of approvals I am waiting for.
  • Once a project has an approved code, it can certainly have a test running at Incubator. However, Language Committee still has to decide whether it will consider this project eligible to become an independent Wikipedia someday. Most of the time, LangCom does not even take this question up until the code is approved. However, I will be requesting a ruling from LangCom just after the first of the year so that there is no waiting when the time comes.
    In theory, an argument can be made that this project fails m:LPP#Requisites for eligibility, item #3: It is really not so unique that it couldn't exist within other projects. I'll be 100% honest with you: If right now, the only Wikipedia that existed now were the original Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia (sh:), I'd resist creating any of the others on this basis. However, given the current situation where that Wikipedia and three others all exist, I believe that LangCom will, in fact, agree that this project is eligible and will approve it as such. However, that's only my belief, not a guarantee. And any approval that happens is still tentative until the code is published by SIL.

All of the above assumes that the evidence pointing to an imminent code approval comes true. I'm allowing a lot based on that assumption—don't think I'm not. But I can only go so far without an actual, approved code.

2. What happens if a code is not published in the January 2018 code approval release by SIL[edit]

Basically, there are two possibilities here.

  • SIL couldn't turn it around this year, but intends to do so next year. In that case, someone has to provide me documentation to that effect. If that's the case, the Incubator test can stay open, and the Meta request will remain on hold.
  • There's nothing really going on at all. If that's the case, the Incubator test will close, and the Meta request will be rejected. I don't assume that this is the case at all, mind you. But this is what will happen if it is, in fact, the case.

3. Mass import/migration/steps going forward[edit]

The importers will really not want to do any mass import work until the code is approved. (It's a good question as to whether they'd do it in the middle case.) But it will be a lot of work for you to do all that importing without mass import, and in the (ok, unlikely) event that the code is not approved at all, that work would be deleted. I'm encouraging you to wait just a little while longer so that you don't do a lot of work that ends up deleted.
Now, once the code is approved, and the test is underway, the following things still need to happen before this test can get final approval. (More details are available at m:LPP.)

  • There must be a reasonable amount of content. You may be able to accomplish that fairly quickly using the imported content. You can also copy/adapt individual pages from similar projects (shwiki or srwiki, for example). Please remember to provide attribution if that happens.
  • There must be an active test project community. That generally means that for a minimum of three consecutive months, there are at least three named contributors (contributors with usernames) that make ten edits each month. The three editors don't need to be the same three each month, but there do need to be three each month. And that level of activity must continue until approval.
  • There must be translation of the MediaWiki interface (at least the MediaWiki "most important messages", and some progress into the rest of "MediaWiki (core messages)") at translatewiki.net.
  • Once those things have happened and LangCom tentatively approves the project, it will ask a language expert to affirm that the content is, in fact, Montenegrin. Ideally, this should be an expert without strong ties to the test project itself. Start considering who might be an appropriate expert for LangCom to consult.

Overall, if the code is actually approved in January, there is a possibility of your requesting final approval from LangCom in May, with a project created in June.
Assuming this project and test are going forward, I will try to be vigilant to watch for vandalism. Please report vandalism to I:AN or ping me if you see some.
I hope you have found this explanation helpful. StevenJ81 (talk) (incubator administrator and LangCom clerk) 15:50, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

"The importers will really not want to do any mass import work until the code is approved." @StevenJ81 may we now start importing since the code has been approved? Or would you advise gathering some more evidence and in that case what would be the best?--Lujki (talk) 23:56, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
@Lujki Please tell me what license the other project uses. I have received some information from off-wiki that suggests that it might be CC-BY-NC-SA, which is different from the license we use here (CC-BY-SA). It is not acceptable to import content under that kind of license here. If that is the license that exists there, we need to open a discussion about how to handle things. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:45, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
I just checked its GNU FDL and it says it compatible on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Free_Documentation_License.

"Compatibility with Creative Commons licensing terms
Although the two licenses work on similar copyleft principles, the GFDL is not compatible with the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike license. However, at the request of the Wikimedia Foundation, version 1.3 added a time-limited section allowing specific types of websites using the GFDL to additionally offer their work under the CC BY-SA license. These exemptions allow a GFDL-based collaborative project with multiple authors to transition to the CC BY-SA 3.0 license, without first obtaining the permission of every author, if the work satisfies several conditions:
The work must have been produced on a "Massive Multiauthor Collaboration Site" (MMC), such as a public wiki for example.If external content originally published on a MMC is present on the site, the work must have been licensed under Version 1.3 of the GNU FDL, or an earlier version but with the "or any later version" declaration, with no cover texts or invariant sections. If it was not originally published on an MMC, it can only be relicensed if it were added to an MMC before November 1, 2008."
Our project was started in 2006. Project has stopped working that year and its quite likely that was before November 1, 2008. It was MMC site and by all that it fits exemption and is acceptable to be converted to CC BY-SA without asking each author for permission.
All details can be found here as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crnogorska_Enciklopedija --Ego and his own (talk) 17:01, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Црногорска википедија на ћирилици или латиници?[edit]

Браћо оли мо се одлучит хоће ли црногорска Википедија бит на латиници или ћирилици? Ја предлажем да буде на ћирилици. Треба започети гласање да ли црногорска Википедија треба бит на ћирилици или латиници.--пеливан Gaim.svg (talk) 18:58, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Da se držimo Ustava i Pravopisa Crnogorskoga jezika: objje varijante ravnopravne!--Markus cg1 (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Слажем се! Требало би сви црногорски википедијанци да се окупе на ову страницу и да се организујемо око црногорске википедије.--пеливан Gaim.svg (talk) 11:57, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Braco, sto cemo sa tim sto vam institucije Crne Gore, ne koriste crnogorski jezik ?Da ne pricam sto vam 43% stanovnistva zbori Srpski jezik, znate li vi koliko je to posrbica ? :(

Ako si brat ne vrijedjaj nikoga. Svako ima pravo da bude sto zeli i da prica jezikom koji zeli. --Ego and his own (talk) 15:42, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

И за колегу што прича српски и за колегу што говори црногорски чисто једна мала примедбица, имена језика се на оба језика пишу малим словом (осима ако нису на почетку реченице или цитата). --НиколаБ (talk) 17:48, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

tebe mora da su mucili mnogo ka mali oko toga pa ti sad svako kriv koga nijesu. Nauci ti Nikola da pises o necemu pametnom da doprineses znanju - to nije znanje o cemu ti pricas. Ako ti bas smeta ispravljaj ne gnjavi. Trosis bajte na gluposti. --Ego and his own (talk) 18:02, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Богу хвала мучио ме није нико, осим можда професора српског језика у средњој школи који су били пицајзле и гледали длаку у јајету. Википедија није политика, Википедија је језички пројекат и на свакој Википедији правопис мора бити свето писмо. Зато и постоје све ове силне верзије на више од 200 језика, управо да би се сачували и промовисали сви ти језици, а њиховим говорницима омогућио брз и јефтин приступ подацима и знању. Ако је за тебе као будућег уредника Википедије на црногорском језику небитно да ли ћеш неку реченицу написати у складу са правописним нормама властитог језика или не, ти си онда дечко драги промашио поенту Википедије. Ја нисам гласао ни за ни против јер мислим да немам право да се мешам у те ствари, о томе одлуку треба да донесу они којима је то матерњи језик, а не уредници са википедија на српском, хрватском, кинеском или било ком другом језику. Разумемо се ми и више него добро, али не желим ништа да тврдим јер немам Правопис црногорског језика и не знам које су то специфичности, али сама уводна реченица на главној страници је погрешна. Добродошли на Црногорску Википедију! Прво, добродошлица се пише у две одвојене речи, придев црногорски иде малим словом (баш као и српски, кинески, хрватски) и треће и најважније, ни једна Википедија није национални већ лингвистички пројекат. Према томе овде се не говори о "Црногорској Википедији" већ о "Википедији на црногорском језику" и њу неће уређивати држава Црна Гора већ сви они којима је црногорски матерњи језик, па живели они у Црној Гори или на Марсу. Све најбоље --НиколаБ (talk) 18:33, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Sveto Pismo je Biblija, ne budali. A ovo pise na Mediawiki Fondaciju:The Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. is a nonprofit charitable organization dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free, multilingual, educational content, and to providing the full content of these wiki-based projects to the public free of charge.
Tako da nemoj da pises odje hvalospjeve o sebi i svom pravopisu vec se foukusiraj na temu jer ovo je cisti spam sto ti radis. Necemo sad citavu stranu da trosimo na tvoje komplekse koje ti je taj profesor nabio. Pogledaj ko je promijenio pa njemu reci ili sam ispravi. odje se ljudi jos uvijek vjezbaju smanji svoj dozivljaj. --Ego and his own (talk) 18:56, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Прво, ако неко треба да смањи доживљај онда си то ти јер ако ниси способан да комуницираш на цивилизацијском нивоу са неким онда и је боље да ћутиш. Примедбе су конструктивне и упућене су целој заједници, а не теби као појединцу, пошто је очито да интелектуално ниси способан да одговориш на исте. Уосталом у праву си, брига ме, шта ја има да се петљам. Уколико је циљ да се направи један правописни циркус онда сте/си на добром путу. Иначе, чега се паметан стиди тим се будала поноси. Свако добро --92.241.155.117 19:52, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Tebi je civilizovanost da ides unakolo i da popujes ljudima kako da pisu? Aj gubi se odavde kompleksasu jedan. Idi tamo na svoju wikipediju pa tamo prosipaj te mudolije --Ego and his own (talk) 20:07, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Svako dobronamjeran moze da vidi da osoba koja je prepravila stranu ne prica dobro naski. Ovaj inkubator je tek poceo. Ljudi ce ispraviti sve kad clanci se popune kvalitetnim sadrzajem. To je najbitnije da imamo kvalitet a formu je lako ispraviti. --Ego and his own (talk) 20:19, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Zamolio bih sve koji imaju namjeru da doprinesu ovome da se ne sprdaju sa jezikom. Na stranici o Njegosu pise naŠljedstvo, ja za svojih 30 godina nikad ne cuh za tu rijec. Osobeno, opce, bez lokativa???...Budite ozbiljni jer ce ovo prvo u Crnoj Gori izazvati sprdnju. Ne sprdajte se sa svojim jezikom!!! Nikola Nikšić (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I sto sad ako ti nisi cuo toga nema? A da nije sto zivis nedje drugo dje ne pricaju crnogorski pa nikad ne cu to? Ao ljudi kakvih likova ovudije ima... --Ego and his own (talk) 21:06, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Zivim u sred Crne Gore i nikad ne cuh da tako neko prica. Ne pravi cirkus i sprdnju od jezika. Nikola Nikšić (talk) 21:12, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Ma ti si se utripovao da samo ono sto ti znas postoji. Uzivaj ti u svome ubjedjenju, a ja vidim da ti pojma nemas no si odje iz drugih razloga. Znamo mi u CG kakvija sve ima u nas te bi prodali svu crnu goru za garsonjeru u bijelome gradu. Idi tamo na svoju wiki srbine pa tamo medju svoje uzivaj i srbuj do mile volje. --Ego and his own (talk) 21:15, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Ne znam "kakvija", al znam kakvih. Ti si jedna ocigledna budaletina i sa tobom se nema smisla raspravljti. Pozzz Nikola Nikšić (talk) 21:23, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Aj da ti ne pravimo ispracaj. Srecno sa tom stambenom situacijom! --Ego and his own (talk) 21:25, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Treba ispraviti ovo na pocetku, nije crnogorska wikipedia nego wikipedia na crnogorskom jeziku(malim slovom) Nikola Nikšić (talk) 21:56, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Creative Commons content - Sadrzaj u javnom vlasnistvu[edit]

Htio bih odje da pokrenem temu da porazgovaramo o kontribuciji creativnog sadrzaja koji je u javnom vlasnistvu. Molio bih sve zainteresovane da se ukljuce i da kazu kako mogu doprinijeti. Ja imam preko 60.000 fotografija i videa sto sam slikao, po Crnoj Gori i po svijetu a dosta toga sam spreman da podijelim pod ovom licencom u korist nase Wikipedije. Ako znate ljude i organizacije u Crnoj Gori koje bi mogle pomoci ka ovom cilju javite se pa da popricamo vise o tome. Takva jedna kontribucija bi mnogo znacila za ovaj nas projekat.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ego and his own (talk) 20:32, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Фотке можеш на Wikimediju да поставиш.--пеливан Gaim.svg (talk) 21:37, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Znam ja da mogu nego bih da pokrenem incijativu odje da se ljudi angazuju i i o Crnoj Gori i sadrzaju vezanom za nju i nase odje clanke. Pa posle neka oni koriste to i za druge projekte ako im se svidi. --Ego and his own (talk) 20:41, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Ako poznajete nase ljude koji su na bilo koji nacin vezani za stvaralastvo, bilo da su sami autori bilo da su zaposljeni u javne i privatne institucije kojima je djelatnost vezana za stvari kao sto su umjetnost, edukacija i slicno, porazgovarajte sa njima o ovome i pokusajte da ih ubijedite da doniraju makar nesto ovom projektu. To bi bilo od velike pomoci u ocuvanju kulturne bastine koja je veoma bogata ali ne postoji u elektronskoj formi. Moglo bi to da bude strasna stvar ako bi se aganzovali oko toga samovoljno. --Ego and his own (talk) 20:55, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Setting up the rules for this test project[edit]

Moved to Incubator:Community Portal, because I have blacklisted the test for now. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:50, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Returned at 14:40, 28 December 2017 (UTC). StevenJ81 (talk)
Attention: Montenegrin Test Wikipedia Community

You are getting close to ruining the possibility of creating a Montenegrin project. Given how long many of you have hoped for this, I'm sorry to have to say that. But it's true. Consider the following:

  • Look at what I crossed out just above. Right now, LangCom looks like it wants to say no, ISO code or not, because it sees Montenegrin as being essentially identical to Ijekavian Serbian. (THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO ARGUE THAT POINT. SO DON'T.) I am trying to set up a new discussion at Meta (probably Thursday) that will provide the community another chance to make a case against that.
  • Right now, we've got some edit warring going on, mainly on the issue of Cyrillic vs. Latin, and who knows what else. Edit warring is no more permitted here than on any other Wikipedia.
  • If this community can't agree on its own, politely, about what it wants to do, then I don't see why I should bother trying to get you another chance. I can just let LangCom say no, then delete this test on the grounds that LangCom considers Montenegrin an ineligible language, and then we'll all be done. I do not want to be constantly in the middle of a whole lot of fighting here.

So here's what you have to do: Right here and right now, you need to have a discussion, in English (so I understand), about what the rules around here are going to be. I will cut off and remove anyone who is rude. You have only one chance. Don't lose it. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:09, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Discussion about Rules[edit]

Please lets talk here about rules that gonna be used for Wiki on Montenegrin language. I am only a contributor I have no interest in making up rules beside maybe support those that i feel are just and will prevent something like this happening again and that will provide us calm and encouraging environment to contribute and make this project happen. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ego and his own (discussioncontribs) 2:04, 28 December 2017 (UTC).

Discussion[edit]

Mostly off-point (for this purpose) discussion

@StevenJ81: Discussion about what exactly? I checked with community in Montenegro and no one knows who did those edits? So anyone who disliked idea that there is wikipedia in Montenegrin language could have done this. can you show properly where is langCom links to this decision so we can see who and what is decided. --Ego and his own (talk) 23:09, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Why you did not just block people who did what is inapropriate instead of causing now problem for everyone? What means of defence we have against qnyone who deliberatly wanted to cause this? You are admin but you make rush decisions and I dont see any legal base for this. Please explain your self. As I dont see any proof that we did anything wrong but hole project is being shoot down. All you said are just assumptions.— The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2600:387:6:80d::bf (discussioncontribs).

@StevenJ81 So you are basically allowing people who perhaps disliked the idea of us having our wikipedia (due to political or ethnic reasons) to ruin our chance of having it. It is quite possible that no Montenegrin person did that, but someone from former Yugoslav countries who rejects the idea of Montenegrin wikipedia. I believe that you as an administrator should be there to objectively protect our right to freely contribute to Wikipedia, not to prevent us from doing that. It is extremely frustrating for us who are putting much effort to actualize this idea, that our work is annulled, due to someone else's evil intentions. --Crnogorac98 (talk) 00:20, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Question[edit]

How is this in any way different from a Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian-language project? —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:47, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


Yes.. Koavf is right. Montenegrin language is same as Serbian. Previously, Montenegrin and Serbian were one language. Why you will enable two shwikis? Zoranzoki21 (talk) 00:29, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

This is the same goofy nationalism as the Romanian/"Moldovan" split. It's stupid. —Justin (koavf)TCM 00:31, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
I dont think you know what you are talking about. I doubt that any honest person would deny anyone to use his language. If you read Steven comment you will see that he was not able to translate my writing in my native Montenegrin language. If that was true, what you and him says, he would be able simply to use any Serbian to English Translator. There is a good portion of language similarity and we can talk to each other easy but there are differences to the degree that I cant express my self fully in Serbian language(or Croatian, Bosnian etc..). This is very simple proof. On other hand Serbian hegemony and their presence on Wiki projects can be easily seen. They simply deny my right to have my own language and calling my way of speaking "inappropriate.". That is rude in any culture not just mine. --Ego and his own (talk) 00:50, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
@Ego and his own: It is perfectly appropriate for there to be projects in every language that is sustainable. But it is not appropriate to have a single linguistic community split over political or cultural differences within it. My understanding is that Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian are a close enough dialectical continuum to be a single language. Duplicating projects in nearly identical languages serves no purpose. —Justin (koavf)TCM 01:36, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
With all respect you didnt address anything what i have said. You just assume they are close enough. There is a reason why Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian have wikipedia on their own language. But I dont see any intention of you or anyone here who is for some reason interested in this topic to ask why Montenegrin is an exception now and cant have its own wiki. Why is so? I know you dont know my language, and why so you are convinced in something that you dont know?! Can you explain me any of that? --Ego and his own (talk) 01:44, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
@Ego and his own: See my above question. I don't think there should be split versions of language editions based on purely cultural or political concerns. I don't speak any Slavic language, so I definitely don't know how to communicate in Montenegrin/Serbian. I know what anyone else would know from w:en:Comparison of standard Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin and Serbian. —Justin (koavf)TCM 02:22, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
@Koavf: Thank you for providing the link. That page leans a lot toward similarities while in practice differences are far greater. Let me show that in example :
English Croatian Bosnian and Serbian (Ijekavian) Montenegrin
Where will you be? Gdje ćeš biti? Đe ćeš da budeš?
Where will you go? Kamo ćeš ići? Gdje ćeš ići? Đe ćeš da ideš?
Which way will you go? Kuda ćeš ići?
In reality following is more correct for most Montenegrin speakers and we would "eat" many words and put accent on specific places to change even completely meaning of the word, but bear in mind that depends where speaker is from this can vary even more or less. Maybe parents where educated somewhere else and influenced their houshold etc.
English Croatian Bosnian and Serbian (Ijekavian) Montenegrin
Where will you be? Gdje ćeš biti? Đe ćeš bit?
Where will you go? Kamo ćeš ići? Gdje ćeš ići? Đe ideš? ili Đe ćeš ?
Which way will you go? Kuda ćeš ići? Kud ideš? ili Kudije ćeš ?
So that article is written in a way to show similarities more then paying attention to any difference that are quite obvious to anyone who study in deepth Montenegrin Language. Unfortunately because of History and subjection of Montenegro under Serbia from 1918 to 1945 all schools forced population to study "Serbian" and latter "Serbo-Croatian" while people wrote that way they continued to speak Montenegrin and that is why there is disproportion between written and spoken language. Since Montenegro got independence in resent decades there was a intention to resolve this problem and make effort to enable Montenegrin people to write as they speak. Dus we have introduced new letters that dont exist in other languages and many more changes that are there and ongoing. Just dont get me wrong I am not an expert just sharing my view, but I do know that this page is not representing the truth completely but it is modeled to support similarities. And what is worse many Serbian speaking people will claim that one or all variations we use are false and not correct. And there we come to base of the problem. Suppression of difference in speaking and claiming that language that is in use by People is effect of ignorance and not natural occurrence and so on. While we do know that Montenegrin writers and poets of whom some where Stateman like Njegos (http://www.njegos.org/petrovics/gvijenac.htm) I can guarantee that no Serbian speaking person could read you and translate you almost every second sentence because they dont understand it. They would need to read translations and explanations of most words that are used in that work of his. I could go more about this but its tedious. If you have any specific question for me I would try to answer. --Ego and his own (talk) 03:46, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Next, Steven is in all right. This artificial creation should not be founded. Zoranzoki21 (talk) 00:33, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

I do expect that Serbian speaking users will flood this page with opposition. I don't have anything against Serbian people or their Language but I do find offensive when you are trying to deny mine. And I do suspect that person who caused this closure of incubator is a Serbian nationalist who did this intentionally so our project is closed. --Ego and his own (talk) 01:00, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
OK. What the discussion is supposed to be about here is what the rules are going to be at Montenegrin Wikipedia, assuming the project even goes forward. The discussion about whether the project will go forward at all is happening elsewhere. I'm probably going to reopen that tomorrow at Meta under very limited rules. But don't start in on that here on this page.

The question as to whether I should have locked this test or not is a fair one. Frankly, if it were obvious to me who is legitimately interested in a quality Montenegrin project and who is a saboteur, I would have blocked the saboteurs. But when we have edit wars over whether the project pages should be in Cyrillic or Latin, it's just not automatically obvious to me who is right.

From my perspective, every time I protected a page due to edit wars, a fight broke out on a different page, with different users causing problems. I couldn't keep up. I really felt I had no choice but to temporarily cool things off and establish some rules.

Any Wikipedia project needs to have rules. In most cases those rules simply develop with the project. On this one, though, it looks like we are going to have to establish rules up front. Some rules the community is allowed to decide: Is the project going to be in Latin, Cyrillic or both? Some rules the community is not allowed to decide: Everyone, including Serbians, is permitted to contribute positively and respectfully. We cannot and will not prevent people from editing just because they are part of a different group.

Problem with that is that we have no means to prevent someone going and changing articles and how words are spelled just because he thinks they are not by Serbian "Pravopis", or because he never heard about those words, or any other subjective reason they might have. And if admins dont know our language its impossible to clearly show such activity. I have met numerous Serbs (Including Milos Rancic who you know from Language Committee) who simply deny any possibility beyond their knowledge or even that Montenegrin Language has any specific difference from Serbian. That is impossible situation. You cant convince them because they already made up their mind about it. Any suggestion from your side?--Ego and his own (talk) 02:48, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
Tough problem. When I reopen the discussion on Meta, I'm going to invite you to provide some evidence to help change minds. But I'll be 100% honest with you: It may be far, far easier to build up this project somewhere other than here (like at Wikia's Incubator Plus). Your project would have a lower profile and would probably not attract vandals and saboteurs (or even well-meaning people who don't know Montenegrin) to the same degree. Then when your project is established and has some stability—and perhaps the idea of Montenegrin as a separate language is better established—you come back here and ask for a project at that point. I'm really not trying to get rid of you, but you may just really find that a lot less stressful and a lot more productive. StevenJ81 (talk) 03:22, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
Once we get Montenegrin native Admins that would become no problem.--Ego and his own (talk) 04:02, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
Fair point. But under normal circumstances I can't do that immediately. Possibly if we can get things stabilized just a bit I can work on that. StevenJ81 (talk) 04:17, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
@StevenJ81: I have reached an agreement with the Montenegrin editors, that Montenegrin wikipedia should be in Latin.
StevenJ81, please let the incubator project proceed again.--pelivan Gaim.svg (talk) 10:53 28. December 2017 (UTC)

Am I allowing saboteurs to ruin your chances? I truly hope not. But at this point LangCom is already leaning towards not allowing this project to continue, and that has nothing to do with saboteurs one way or another. So I am trying to get the community to stop and establish some rules first, so that I have some tools to help me stop saboteurs. That at least gives you a chance. StevenJ81 (talk) 02:14, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Let's tackle one question at a time
: @StevenJ81: regarding the comment that Montenegrin language is not authentic, but a jekavian variant of Serbian language, I am hereby sending you the arguments which prove it is not correct.

After the decay of SFRY the agreed artificial so called Serbo-Croatian or Croatian-Serbian language officially ceased to exist, so the logical consequence was for the following separate socio-linguistic languages of Shtokavian origin to evolve as independent: Bosnian, Montenegrin, Croatian and Serbian. Naturally, within these languages certain structural specificities developed. Such specificities are not negligible and cannot be annihilated by a thesis that if there are no communication obstacles, we cannot speak about different languages. Montenegrins created their language in the process of their own development in the capacity of an authentic and self-grown nation in specific natural and historical conditions. As such, it has three layers: 1. first part are general Shtokavian language features (common in Bosnian, Montenegrin, Croatian and Serbian languages); 2. second part are the features from general Montenegrin language layer (macro-structure); and 3. third layer comprises features of local speech patterns pertaining to Montenegrin dialects (micro-structures). Basic structural difference between these languages, among others, is their phonemic composition. “Surplus” Montenegrin phonemes are ś and ź. In Montenegro, they are commonly acknowledged, which is why they have been included in the Montenegrin standards. Confirmation of their phonemic nature are numerous: Śoga : šoga, śenka : Senka, Źagore : zagore, Źagora : Zagora, 3avala : zavala, śetni : ćetni, śenica : šenica, śutra : jutra, śenka : ženka; źenica : ženica, źato : zato, Źale : Zale. Numerous authors have pointed out to the general presence of voices ś and ź in Montenegrin dialects, as well as to the custom of the voice з in these speeches (even though the last one often alternated with z under the influence of Serbian language which is still officially in use in Montenegro, and because it was impossible to write it). Based on the Montenegrin onomastic substance, the omnipresence of voices ś and ź in Montenegrin language is irrefutably evident. Contrary to the mentioned phonological system of Montenegrin language, Serbian standard language has 30 phonemes. Montenegrin specific phonemes mentioned above appear very rarely in Serbian speeches, and thus pertain to the dialectical layer of that language. Serbian standard language does not know voices ś and ź as products of jekavian iotation. There, it is always: sjekira, sjesti, sjetiti, brezje, klasje, osje, kozji, pasji, zjenica, izjesti etc. Instead of these forms, in Montenegrin language the following forms are standard and omnipresent: śekira, śenica, śesti, śetiti, śutra, klaśe, ośe, paśi, iźesti, iźelica, koźi, źenica, źenični etc. As such, these forms have a dialectical, or mostly local status. In Serbian language, they are very solitary part of the dialect, thus not being part of its standard. These forms entered Serbian language mostly from the territory of Montenegro by mass migrations starting from the 15th century. In Montenegrin language, these voices are its unavoidable and distinguished part. In view of the creation and development of consonants ś and ź, they cannot always be replaced with sj and zj, because they did not appear only as a product of jekavian iotation. The following examples can prove it: Śoga, Śota, Daśko, pośljednji, źatiti, groźđe (in Montenegrin speeches), iźđeljati etc. Voices ś and ź did not appear in Montenegrin language only as a product of jekavian iotation, but its appearance is widely confirmed in hypocoristics: hypocoristicity is certainly the grounds on which (…) voices ś and ź developed. And subsequently, as it is the case with other hypocoristics, it was possible for the generalization process to appear and for the hypocoristics to grow into non-hypocoristics, which is what actually did happen. Due to the lack of adequate graphemes in the standard alphabet and Cyrillic script, Montenegrin writers have noted these voices in different (inadequate) manners. Along with the most frequent use of groups sj and zj instead of typical ś and ź, they often used šj and žj, or even š and ž as substitutes. Once it was formed, one way or the other, as a formant, the consonant ś could act and spread completely independently, without any connection with the voice j. Phonemes ś and ź were formed by the so-called new or jekavian iotation and alignment to the place of creation: śever, śutra, śen, śenopadina, uśečenije, Śekloća (surname), in nouns expressing dearnes (hypocoristics): Śata, Paśo, Śaka and in toponyms and hydronyms: Paśeglav, Śenica, Śerava, Preśeka, Śenokos(i), Koźe pogledalo, Koźevići, Glavica koźa, Koźi brijeg, Koźa, iźelica, iźesti, źđeljati, Źaga, Źajo. The importance of these phonemes as substantially recognizable features of Montenegrin language, a renown Croatian professor of general linguistics and sociolinguistics Dubravko Škiljan indicates as follows: The closest to the option of detaching as a separate language is not Croatian, but Montenegrin language – the moment they introduce in their standard language soft forms of š and ž as special phonemes (…), they will make a more resolute move than any other alterations made here for the purpose of the language separation. For, that is something that firmly defines the language structure, number or phonemes system. Apart from the said differences, as an outstanding feature of Montenegrin standard language and its recognizable difference in comparison with Serbian language, there are voices ć and đ, which appeared by jekavian iotation. In Serbian standard language, the only ones acknowledged as normative are the results of jekavian iotation of consonants lj and nj (ljeto, ljepota, voljeti, njegovati, snježan etc), whereas all other are qualified as dialectical. In Serbian literary speech of jekavian pronunciation only sonants l and n are aligned: ljeto (for ekavian leto), ljepota (for ekavian lepota), njegovati (for ekavian negovati), nježan (for ekavian nežan), while consonants (s, z, d, t) remail unaltered: djevojka, vidjeti, tjerati, sjekira, izjesti etc. Such forms without iotation are absolutely unknown in all the Montenegrin language territory. All the linguistic research of Montenegrin speeches so far has shown that voices ć and đ as products of jekavian iotation of consonants t, d and c are omnipresent in all the terrain. It is a common thing t, d, c + je (đe was an old grapheme of jat) > će, đe: ćerati, lećeti, ćešiti (but also tješiti), vrćeti; đe, đed, neđelja, đegođ and in onomatics: Ćetko, Ćetna, Ćetković, ćetalj, Ćetanski pod, Ćedilo, Ćeklići, Šćepan, Šćepo, Šćepanović, Šćepan polje, Šćepandan, Neđeljko, Međeđe, Međedović. Consonants d and t in Montenegrin standard language are not subject to iotation only in rare cases: a) in complex verbs, when their prefix ends in d and the other part starts with j: nadjačati, odjuriti, odjeziditi, podjarmiti, odjednom, odjedanput, podjariti etc; b) in foreign complex words: adjektiv, adjunkt; d) in lexemes: tjeme, tjelesni, tjelesina. Considering such a use of phonemes đ and ć in Montenegrin language, they had to become part of its standard (exactly as the voices ś, ź mentioned earlier), since they represent imposing characteristics of that language. The analysis of phonetic-phonological features of Montenegrin and Serbian languages lead to a conclusion that the basic differences among them are as follows: the rank and status of phonemes ś, ź, ć i đ, namely the presence/absence of phonemes ś, ź in their standards and phonemes ć and đ created as the result of jekavian iotation. These features can be associated with jekavian script, because ekavian script is a recognizable Serbian language feature, and it can be assumed that the status of jekavian script in that language will be rather marginal in the near future. And so forth. The truth is that during the times of Yugoslavia, the education was mostly carried out in Serbo-Croatian language, because the Montenegrins were attached to the idea of the common state. Yugoslavia fell apart not due to Montenegrins and all the nations returned to their languages, which they used before. I would like to note that the state of Serbia officially introduced Montenegrin language as official language of the Montenegrin minority in Serbia, and that it is financing publications, school education and manifestations in Montenegrin language from the state budget, which is prescribed by the laws of the state of Serbia. Freemanmne (talk) 12:10 30. December 2017 (UTC)

Question 1.[edit]

Cyrillic, Latin or both? Please add your preference below. Anything that does not answer that question alone will be removed. StevenJ81 (talk) 02:14, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Constitution of Montenegro holds both Cyrillic and Latin equal. My view: I never use Cyrillic since school days(practical reasons) and I never saw Montenegrin speaking person to do so frequently, which leads me to believe that most of contribution will be in Latin and that Cyrillic would require someone with dedication to convert articles for it. And even in that case all would likely be delayed and cause miss match in number of articles created and converted to Cyrillic. Unless you(or anyone) know for some tools that can do that automatically it would require someone to stand up and promise to work on it.--Ego and his own (talk) 02:26, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Tools exist on Serbian and Serbo-Croatian projects that can surely be adapted for this purpose. StevenJ81 (talk) 02:27, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

--MneCuce (talk) 09:11, 28 December 2017 (UTC)Before in the past Montenegrins first write with Glagoljica (Glagolitic alphabet). Letter what was specific for Duklja (Doclea) old Montenegrins, Croats and some parts of today Bosnia and Herzegovina. Latter of Montenegrins start to write with Cyrillic and in new time also with Latin. The reason for writing in Latin is the simplicity in today technology and writing. In Montenegro today by Constitution both letter are equal (Latin and Cyrillic) but everything is basically written in Latin (Government buildings, police, hospital (...) labels, and so on). One more thing, Montenegrins are the smallest population in Balkan (in Montenegro around 300.000 Montenegrins from 640.000 people in MNE and around 100.000 people outside of Montenegro) we are basically ENDEM population but proud free people who fight for their independence from Austrian-Hungarian Empire and from other side from Ottoman Empire. All other South Slavs were in borders of those to big empires. Croats in Austrian Empire and Bosnians, Serbs, Macedonians in Ottoman Empire. That give the reason why Montenegrin language was very different from Serbian or Croatian, I would like to give this link with arguments from Croatian Wikipedia; https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crnogorski_jezik You can translate it in English of course and what is written about. Later after Montenegrins lost their state in 1918. thanks to Serbs and home traitors (who were outnumbered but helped wit Serbian army who make invasion at Montenegro). Serbian were making cultural-genocide (etnocid) that all Montenegrins are basically Serbs or "pure Serbs". That politic from 100 years ago is even today a big brake for Montenegrin kulture, history, language (ok we settle that), religion etc. A lot of falsch information's an lies came from Serbia about Montenegro - they are not relevant! Example; Serbs like to say Montenegrins speak Serbian because Njegosh (Njegoš) who was Metropolit of Montenegrin ortodox Church and ruler of Montenegro is by Serbs "the biggest Serb" and from other side when his (Njegosh) script, novel "Gorski vijenac" came to Belgrad in 1927. they needed to translate it in Serbian language because they didn't understand the language that was written in. After they brought that novel in Montenegro and claimed to Montenegrins that now they also understand this novel because it is written in Serbian language (?) - that situation will be written in Wikipedia with documentation as evidence as also that SERB VUK KARADŽIĆ STOLED MONTENEGRIN LANGUAGE AND CLAIM IT AS SERBIAN, OF COURSE ALSO HE CLAIMED THAT MONTENEGRINS ARE SERBS SO THAY SPEAK SERBIAN LANGUAGE (we have documentation for that also). Problem here is that Wikipedia if free market and anyone can write on it, now imagine what 8.000.000 Serbs with around 100.000 etnocide Montenegrins who today call them self Serbian can do to Montenegrin Wikipedia who is basically here for all together 400.000 people so they can tell the true about them. Solution is that University of Montenegro has option as Administrator or some relevant historian or a historian-journalist like :::::::::@Freemanmne who write more than 600 articles for newspapers about Montenegrin history, tradition, language, Church and State. Thank you.

I strongly disagree. This is not a matter of a -agreement- between individuals, but a matter for linguistics, or in this specific case montenegrin linguisics. And if the new montenegrin grammar says that the two scripts are both equal and both integral part of that language, than the project must be made on that basis. Imagine when the american dudes that made Wikipedia, or particularly en.wiki said: well coz we speak american english lets make it an am.en project and forbid all the other varieties, coz we agrred so. No, they went to see that the grammar says. And so it must be here. If the two scripts are both equal according to the montenegrin grammar then it must be a two script project. Go and look at sr.wiki. It's a two script project. And not the only one. As i recall azeri.wiki uses also 2 scripts, the kurdi one i think 3 scripts etc. --Ivan VA (talk) 10:25, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
I think this decision should be made for a simple reason. sr.wiki uses automatic conversion, which can always also be installed on a separate Montegrin domain, but which is difficult to implement on the incubator. Therefore, for as long as the Montegrin Wikipedia is on the incubator, one script should be chosen, so automatic conversion can - relatively - easily be implemented if you get your separate domain. --OWTB (talk) 10:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
I get the praciticality part, but u get that, if for example if i would make an article in cyrillic, and someone would delete it it would be plain wrong, according to the grammar of the language. I don't really get the difference between the incubator and the real thing. I don't know if u knew but we have some -bad- practice this sorts. The grammar of the bosnian language also says the two (latin and cyrilic) scripts are equal, but when the bosnian wiki was founded the editors just decided to use the one (latin) because of -practical- purposes. And this decision stayed to this day, 15 years after, although it's wrong according to the grammar. So my fear is basically the same here. If u make the mistake in the incubator it will reproduce itself after on the real thing. They'll just copy-paste it from here. If u look at the arguments made there, they are mostly political why should it bee so. U have right 1 here above. I don't know if u're familiar with montenegrin language policies the last 15 years, but that state is basically promoting only 1 (latin) script for that time, for political reasons i don't wanna bother you. I'm just making you aware that in the eyes of the many this is not just a practicality discussion, but you're tapping into a heated political debate which is going on for years now. And i don't seem that many of the ppl. outside of this (non-native speakers) involved in this get it. The natives get it. That's why the discussion there is closed. Coz they're got into a political fight. If i would picture it to you just emagine a discussion between hardcore Trump and Hillary supporters. --Ivan VA (talk) 10:56, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

--MneCuce (talk) 14:27, 28 December 2017 (UTC)to be honest about Montenegrin Wikipedia I think it should be written in Latin letter but also have option to be read in Cyrillic letter (!). --Ivan VA We all Montenegrins know when complete Montenegrin Wikipedia ist in only Cyrillic letter it will remind us for Serbs who are constantly using Cyrillic as their letter (!). They are making today true propaganda that Cyrillic letter is only Serbian and that is why we Montenegrins should be careful with that. I am for that that in Montenegrin Wikipedia is both but primary Latin letter, mainly because we have a lot of Montenegrins born and living in West country's (Croatia, Bosnia, Italy, Germany, Argentina, Canada, USA) who never had chance to learn Cyrillic letter in schools and so on.

It sounds like this has been resolved in a satisfactory way. For the time being, the test will be written in the Latin alphabet. At some point after things settle down a bit, I'm going to research the question of whether the script converters at Serbian Wikipedia and Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia allow for either script to be used for writing, and the other viewing, or whether it is just one-way. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:11, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Question 2.[edit]

I think it would be plain wrong if the project would call itself -Montenegrin wikipedia-/Crnogorska vikipedija, rather than -Wikipedia on the montenegrin language-; Vikipedija na crnogorskom jeziku-.

Since u guys here allowed in your decision in 03' (when allowed serbian, croatian and bosnian wikis, reather than the crated one serbocroatian wiki), essentially an ethnic-based language project, then the lingustically correct name would be the proposed one. Because the term -montenegrin- in this context implies an ethnic or regional or state identity rather than a linguistic one. For that reasons all the other southslavic wikis, use the name like: wikipedia on the serbian language/vikipedija na srpskom jeziku; wikipedia on the bosnian language/vikipedija na bosanskom jeziku and wikipedia on the croatian langage/wikipedija na hrvatskom jeziku. Go look at the main pages of these wikis. It says so. Not serbian wiki, or bosnian wiki, or coratian wiki. I know for all of u english speakers this may not be a big deal because when sepeaking english it doesn't make a big difference, but if you speak serbocroatina (or the 1 of the varieties) its a huge difference. --Ivan VA (talk) 10:40, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely as; Wikipedia on the Montenegrin language-; Vikipedija na crnogorskom jeziku-. --MneCuce (talk) 14:35, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
In English it would come out as Wikipedia in the Montenegrin language. But you know better than I do how that should look in Montenegrin. Note that to English speakers, in some cases we're highly likely to use the shorthand "Montenegrin Wikipedia" sometimes anyway. See my response to question 1 just above where I named "Serbian Wikipedia" and "Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia": we're probably not going to write it out every single time. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:18, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

--MneCuce (talk) 15:53, 28 December 2017 (UTC)"Wikipedia in the Montenegrin language" is how should be written. StevenJ81

I think it would be acceptable for everyone to be named "Wikipedia in the Montenegrin language". Misko Ajkula
It certainly looks like that to me, too. I think that's well decided.
I was merely pointing out that in certain administrative settings, not everyone is going to write it out every time (in English, anyway). In the real world, if people are discussing "English Wikipedia", "French Wikipedia" and "German Wiktionary", they're not always going to change the pattern and write out "Wikipedia in the Montenegrin language" in place of "Montenegrin Wikipedia". It just won't happen.
That said: If I'm running a formal discussion of this project, I will. (I ought to go over to the Meta page and make sure I update it. I can't change the page title, because that needs to have a certain name pattern. But I can change it elsewhere.) And given that I have been involved in the creation of the test here, I'll probably almost always be careful when I can. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:10, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Question 3.[edit]

Not really question, more a thing to do. Look at Wp/cnr/Montenegro Ethnic Association of Australia. It's not wikified at all: No bold lemma, no section headings, etc. Someone should start writing a Help page on "how to write a Wikipedia page". At minimum, point people to a page on a different project so they can read it. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:22, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

I fixed it a bit.--Rovoobob Razgovor 00:18, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Fine for that page. But there should be a guide page here to help people. This test is becoming very active very quickly, so let's try to do this right. StevenJ81 (talk) 00:51, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Along the same lines, let's everyone please don't write just stubs. Write real articles, with reliable sources and footnotes. The better your test is, the more likely it is to be approved. StevenJ81 (talk) 00:54, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Comment about potential impartiality of member of Language Committee[edit]

Hi, I noticed that one of members of Language Committee (Millosh, actually Milos Rancic from Belgrade, Serbia) could be biased during the voting about creation of Montenegrin Wikipedia. As it stands in table of members of LanCom Millosh considers Croatian, Bosnian and Serbo-Croatian as parts of Serbian! That's very dangerous view since Serbian ultranationalists caused bloody wars in 1990s with such statements about Great Serbia which was supposed to capture the whole Montenegro, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and most of Croatia's territory. Considering they still deny existence of Montenegrins, Croats, Bosniaks and Macedonians, as well as their languages, I'm afraid that Millosh wouldn't be neutral in this case, so I suggest his omission from this process to ensure neutrality. Please, come out with reply. Thanks, --Digitars (talk) 13:19, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Is this discussion in favor of Montenegrin Wikipedia or anti Serbian hysteria? Every second sentence is anti Serbian, Serbs did this, Serbs did that. When I made one little observation about some minor spelling mistakes (couple days ago and a few lines above ↑), the answer was that "I have a serious psychological problems" and that "grammar and orthography are not science"??? I can understand that illiterate people still exist but come on, what is too much is too much. And I really had only the best intentions. One contributor here made false translation of Gorski Vijenac from Montenegrin to Serbia etc etc etc. I must ask, what for? What Serbs and members of Serbian Wikipedia have with Wikimedia Language committee? The only condition for starting project on Montenegrin is the official ISO language code confirmation and thats it. When they got that code than we will have Montenegrin Wikipedia, simple as that. What do we (Serbian Wikipedia) have with that? As administrator on Serbian Wikipedia, I never wrote any single word in negative connotation about Montenegrin Wikipedia or Montenegrin language (it's elementary right for any nation on this planet to call own language on their own way and why Montenegrins will be exception). This is a conversation about starting of new language on Wikipedia and this guy above talk about Slobodan Milošević and 1990s Balkan wars??? Helooouuuuuu. So who is nationalist here, he or Millosh and I. And by the way, one very important observation, Serbia was very first country (after Montenegro) who officially recognized Montenegrin as official minority language in one municipality. So much about occupation. --НиколаБ (talk) 14:43, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
To respond briefly, both to Digitars and НиколаБ:
  • Yes, Milos considers Montenegrin to be part of Serbo-Croatian. So does every single other member of the Language Committee. And so do most linguists. See, inter alia, Language secessionism and Pluricentric language. That is why most of the Language Committee is leaning against an approval now. Milos has not commented yet at Language Committee on the subject, but based on an exchange I've had with him previously, I am almost positive that he will at least be neutral. If anything, Digitars, Milos may end up being the best advocate you have for approval of a separate project, pretty much for the reasons that NikolaB stated at Meta: "Did Montenegrin people have a right for their own Wikipedia? My answer is why they will be exception. Simple as that."
  • On the other hand, "When they got that code than we will have Montenegrin Wikipedia, simple as that." is not correct, either. Language Committee gets to decide. Look carefully at what I laid out at the new discussion on Meta. LangCom does not have to allow this project. I happen to agree personally with NikolaB that "[W]hy they will be exception. Simple as that." But my guess, and it's only a guess, is that the only thing that might convince LangCom to say "yes" is evidence that the Serbian (or Serbo-Croatian) Wikipedia community is not giving the Montenegrin language and cultural point of view much presence within those projects. This is not, I would emphasize, about overall "Serbian nationalism" or "Slobodan Milošević and 1990s Balkan wars". It's specifically about what happens on those projects, and LangCom will need to see specific diffs of evidence, not just vague statements of complaint.
    Don't be completely naive, though, NikolaB. If it weren't for nationalism issues the discussion wouldn't be happening at all. You do not see discussions to have US/British/Canadian/Australian/etc. English projects, or German/Austrian projects, or French/Quebecois projects. It's true that those don't have separate language codes. But the Serbo-Croatian varieties are just as mutually intelligible as the others.
  • I do think that NikolaB has been responsible around here, to the best of my knowledge, and I would be very unhappy to see further complaints about him. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:05, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Maybe I am a little bit naive but, you know, Balkan is very complicated place. I read many discussion about this on Serbian and Croatian Wikipedias, on some Montenegrin forums and its better not to translate what I read there. BTW its him --НиколаБ (talk) 16:28, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
I know Balkan is a very complicated place. That's one reason I wish they'd say "yes"—it's way less complicated just to let each group there go its own way. As to "him/her", thank you. I used the {{gender}} magic word. If you change your user preference from neutral to masculine that will automatically change. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:40, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Changed --ΝικόλαςΜπ. (talk) 17:17, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
I see. And I read the Greek alphabet, too, Nikolas. (Not that I actually speak Greek. Or Serbo-Croatian [any variety]. Or Russian [except a smattering of words].) StevenJ81 (talk) 18:23, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Love was a reason why I started to learn Greek. It's a long story and off topic hehe --ΝικόλαςΜπ. (talk) 19:32, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

@ StevenJ81, you didn't understand me. No, seems that Millosh considers that Croatian (hr), Bosnian (bs) and Serbo-Croatian (sh) are parts of Serbian (sr)! I know that linguists consider Croatian (hr), Bosnian (bs), Montenegrin (?) and Serbian (sr) as parts of macrolanguage known as Serbo-Croatian (sh), but on Millosh's list of languages it doesn't say so. It's clear that macrolanguage can't be part of ordinary language. This is difference: sh (hr, bs, sr) would be right, sr (hr, bs, sh) stands on Millosh's list. Deliberately or not, current state represents attitudes of Serbian ultranationalists and it should be corrected. That's why I express my suspicion in neutrality and impartiality of Millosh and LanCom. ΝικόλαςΜπ, yes, this discussion should be in favor of Montenegrin Wikipedia, but Serbian users make of it anti-Montenegrin hysteria with comments such as "political language", "dialect of Serbian language", "propaganda against Serbian history of Montenegro (what?! This must be a joke)". I'm sorry, but this rhetoric realy reminds of Serbian ultranationalism in late 1980s and 1990s. --Digitars (talk) 22:00, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

I read what some of you wrote about this on montenegro caffe forum and if someone decide to translate all that messages and send them to Language commission what do you think how they will react? Many people who are for new Montenegrin Wikipedia just don't care about language itself, they talk about politics, about past and all this have nothing to do with one language project. Where is article Pravopis crnogorskog jezika? That article must be first written because it is a start point for one language project. But it doesn't exist. But the fairy tales about evil Serbs who want to destroy everything in common with poor Montenegrins are very alive and many repeat them as mantras on every single place. And you know very well that it's all a bullsh.... Did I need remind you that both Serbs country recognized Montenegrin language as independent language and in Republic of Serbia it is official minor language (and Serbia did it much before Montenegrin got this language code). So Montenegrins in Serbia which make up about 0.2% of total population have the right to use their own language but Serbs in Montenegro can't use Serbian. Please, it's better not to start political discussion here, it's not right place and not right time for that. --ΝικόλαςΜπ. (talk) 22:27, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
You certainly should do that if you are truly their friend. Specially what I have said there as I dont change my username and everyone knows who I am for real. So they understand that any action they did in the past and will take in future is legally accountable as action of WMF. And make sure you translate them what I have said about details like that they cant rely anymore on fact that foreigners cant challenge WMF in front of US Courts. Because I am not a foreigner, I live in US and no such dismissal is possible. Make sure also to convey them what Lawyer said about Non-profit organisations and how they cant make decisions as they please contrary to common laws, bylaws and statements of organisation. Tell them also what I have said that they are representing WMF here and any statement they made and decision they will make is decision that WMF made in the eyes of the law. Make them clear that so they might consult supervisors and their legal team before they rush into anything. This is not a game anymore where they can discriminate as they please. Things that I have heard here and have evidence of... But its their call and that of WMF if it will let this discrimination to continue. This is outrageous what is done to Montenegrin people by the WMF. I dont really care for naming LangComm, WMF allowed them to do this. Who did they trust and why its their problem. They violated US Laws by changing rules, after application was accepted, in the middle of the approval process where all conditions where met and they are trying to do that again. That is illegal. If you are their true friend you certainly should have done that, like almost week ago when I wrote all that. I have intentionally left here link for you(r kind) to see so I can clearly distinguish if you are manipulating this people in WMF or they are willingly participating. Lets see shell we? I dont know this people I dont recognize their usernames here, maybe they will say who they are maybe not, neither I know who started this request as I saw it from my friend on the FB but this is my cause as well, I as Montenegrin who took so many insults here like yours. I can prove that I am not illiterate and that my Language does exist and that what is done here to me and the hole Montenegrin nation is exceptional discrimination. Everyone has a Wikipedia on their Language except Montenegrins. I know that Rancic has no shame and I do know for who he is really working in Serbia, but the rest of them. Lets see. --Ego and his own (talk) 07:37, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
For the mercy of God what are you talking about? Hahah what a funny person you are --ΝικόλαςΜπ. (talk) 11:27, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Potential impartiality of more then one member of Language Committee[edit]

There is sufficient proof that among Milos Rancic other members of Committee might fall into same place. None of them actually know anything about Montenegrin Language but that they are heavily influenced by Milos Rancic. In that case his apparent "neutral position" is not sufficient to make their vote undoubted. They are long time friends and without him they would not know nothing about it. I recognize many of them on the list from 13 years ago when they did same thing and prevented this project from happening. Here is first denial (when I was involved) of Wikipedia on Montenegrin Language where they changed rules in the mid of voting when it was obvious that we had sufficient support https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Montenegrin_2 which is not legal in the US for any voting process. Many of them voted again against in http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Montenegrin_3 and while I was not as proficient in English back then, I remember members of Language Committee saying things like: "If there is no manuals for electronic that are sold in Montenegrin Language then its not a Language". I heard many more unbased and biased claims from them. I am pretty sure that I can find those mailing lists where they claimed that Montenegrin Language is not a Language(while they clearly didnt know personally anytihing but relied on Milosh to provide them an view and attain support for such view from Serbian sources) while they clearly lack knowledge of Language to make such judgment. While now its clear that they where all wrong and that claims they made where plainly false, but still we see now they refuse to accept even ISO code as sufficient evidence. Serbian community is very strong here and this people are long time friends with them (I know marriages that lasted less). So this is very good topic here. --Ego and his own (talk) 18:43, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

The only things I can say about this are: (1) It's not a popular vote. (2) Then you'll have to appeal to the WMF Board, and I'm not helping with that. (But you can't do that until LangCom says no again, anyway.) StevenJ81 (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
It seems nothing is good enough and new excuses are made up everytime to forbid this project from happening. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.90.73.27 (discussioncontribs).
StevenJ81 I will not appeal to anyone, I did that before with no effect. I don't know is it part of your responsibility to inform anyone about what has been said here or not. But it has been said and that is sufficient for me. --Ego and his own (talk) 10:10, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

@ User:Ego and his own First who know nothing about Montenenegrin language are you my dear. I don't want to be rude, but a fact is that you are illiterate in your own native tongue. And all your statements about this language project are purely political in nature. You forgot that everything on Wikipedia is about language and only about language. --ΝικόλαςΜπ. (talk) 19:27, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Maybe StevenJ81 don't know how to read Greek but I do Nikola. Your multiple accounts around here are obvious to me. --Ego and his own (talk) 20:03, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia is about educational content not about languages. Its an Encyclopedia.
Multiple accounts? Lol. Honey I only change my signature, you know what is that? Bravo, Wikipedia is encyclopedia, finally you got it. That's why you must first wrote article about Montenegrin orthography and grammar and short guidelines for editing in it. --ΝικόλαςΜπ. (talk) 22:02, 29 December 2017 (UTC)