Talk:Wp/cop/ⲡϣⲁϥⲉ ⲟ

Hello! Could you please tell where the name comes from? I was writing a similar article but ended up with ⲥⲁϩⲣⲁ or ⲥⲁϩⲁⲣⲁ. --Bloomaround (talk) 08:25, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Im not the author of the article but im pretty sure i can explain it. In hieroglyphic Egyptian, a word for desert was dšrt [*dāširat] 'the red one', while Egypt, especially the land around the Nile was kmt [*kūmat] 'the black one'. As the word for red underwent metathesis, we can suppose a word *dāršat later, which yields ⲑⲟⲣϣⲓ in Bohairic. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 10:18, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would not draw from middle ancient Egyptian, if we already have Coptic (non-greek) words for desert (side note, the English word desert itself is probably from dšrt). I would use ϣⲁϥⲉ to refer to any desert and ⲥⲁϩⲣⲉ (from Arabic) (I saw it Labib's and Dowoud's dictionaries) to refer to Sahara (i.e., this article) as it is the name used in almost every other language. Otherwise, I prefer something similar ⲡⲓϣⲁϥⲉ ⲉⲛⲁϣⲱϥ. Shall we move it to ⲥⲁϩⲣⲉ? --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 10:47, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah that is true, drawing from pre-Demotic should remain an exception. Even more so, when a Demotic d/tšrt refers to red crown of Lower Egypt, and not the desert. As Demotic and Coptic are very similar, we should stay close to Demotic if we need a word.

I personally think the idea as such was good, because I prefer Coptic or reconstructed words to Greek and Arabic. But ⲑⲟⲣϣⲓ should refer to the red crown.

There is a word for demotic and hieroglyphic word for desert ḫ3st > *ϣⲱⲥⲓ which we could use for the Sahara. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 11:25, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would rather use ⲥⲁϩⲣⲉ as ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ suggested. I'm not sure though if the name appeared due to Arab conquest. If it did, i think we should rather use reconstructed word. --Bloomaround (talk) 06:23, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ⲥⲁϩⲣⲉ is sure Arabic. However, the reason I suggested it was because Sahara is the most commonly used name in other languages (kind of a standard name). But, if we do not have a quorum here, it is very easy to translate it (no construction needed) to Coptic as ⲡⲓϣⲁϥⲉ ⲉⲛⲁϣⲱϥ or similar (the great desert) which is the name used in Arabic to refer to Sahara. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 11:30, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is surely Arabic, you're right, but was it in use prior to Arab conquest, that was my question. If not, i think we could use another Coptic word, but still as you said, Sahara is international name nowadays, and maybe we should use it anyway. --Bloomaround (talk) 13:42, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea to translate it literally from Arabic. However, could we talk about the various words for "great, big" before, because maybe we can do a semantic differenciation. We have ⲛⲁϣⲱ, ⲛⲓϣϯ, ⲛⲟϫ, ⲟ in Bohairic. ⲟ is old and is generally not used as a normal colloquial word anymore, and it is restricted to fixed phrases, i.e. ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ ⲟ the great god, which is a younger formation, and ⲓⲁⲣⲟ (with the first word in the construct state) 'Nile (the great channel)', as an older formation. We can use it for toponyms and neologisms. Similarly, although ⲛⲟϫ is not antiquated, it is often used for phrases as ⲛⲟϫ `ⲛⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ, but rarer as a normal word for "big" in Bohairic - ⲛⲟϫ (and its dialectal variants), however, is the normal word for "big" in all other Coptic dialects. ⲛⲓϣϯ is often considered the general word for "big" in Bohairic, but it is not super common in fix phrases and never used in toponyms. ⲛⲁϣⲱ, although not extremely common in Bohairic, still appears from time to time, where it can often mean "big, great" in a numerical sense, but not restricted to it.

As "the great desert" is a fixed phrase with a specific meaning (not any large desert, but the large desert in North Africa), I would prefer ⲟ: ⲡⲓϣⲁϥⲉ ⲟ.

Btw, we should also think about how to express concepts like "Greater Hungary", "Greater Serbia", "Greater Germany", "Greater Somalia" in Coptic. Also with ⲟ, i.e. ⲥⲟⲙⲁⲗⲓⲁ ⲟ or ⲱ, if we think that ⲥⲟⲙⲁⲗⲓⲁ is feminine? Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 14:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea of using o in toponyms and fixed phrases. ⲡⲓϣⲁϥⲉ ⲟ sounds great. بطرس مرقس (talk) 00:49, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if nobody likes me idea of ḫ3st > *ϣⲱⲥⲓ for Sahara, then I will add this word to the Coptic neologisms list, in case we need a word with the meaning "desert, necropolis" (as in Demotic). Maybe you are right, and we should use ϣⲁϥⲉ ⲟ. But given the fact that it is a proper noun, ⲡϣⲁϥⲉ ⲟ is probably better than ⲡⲓϣⲁϥⲉ ⲟ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:23, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]