Talk:Wp/grc/Οὐικιπαιδεία:Ἀγορά/Λόγιοι Ἑλληνικοὶ ὅροι περὶ συγχρόνων ἐννοιῶν
Some references[edit source]
Well, in modern literature, some examples (they would be illustrative, as long as they do not disturb classic semantics):
- Harry Potter in Ancient Greek, it's very nice:
- news web sites (they usually loanwords of modern greek):
- Akropolis world news
- In.gr
- and finally the book Astronautilia, (it is more tolerante with loanwords):
Μεταγλωττίσεις[edit source]
Πυρέτοκον does not make morphophonological sense; Πυρίτοκον does. About Barometer as Πιεσιμετρητής I'm not sure, since it may contradict with the term Piezometer. About Algebra now: I've been thinking about it for the past six years (sporadically of course) and eventually came up with the conclusion that some terms are just untranslatable! If anyone can do better than me I'd be very curious to hear about it, but till then I'll use a phonetic transcription of the word; there are three whole syllables to choose if anyone wants to put an oxeia: Ἄλγεβρα like in ἄνασσα (per English & Modern Greek accentuation), Ἀλγέβρα like in ἡμέρα (per revived Latin accentuation), Ἀλγεβρά like in χαρά (because it sounds more "Attic"). I personally use the first one. More generally now, I totally agree with the idea of keeping Οὐικιπαιδείαν as Attic as possible, not on ideological grounds of course, but because this is one of the reasons it/she exists in the first place: to provide a way to show how an encyclopedia written by the natural speakers of Attic Greek would look like. However there are some cases where deviating from Attic is absolutely inevitable:
1) Legalese: I was trying to translate some of the most legal-like and long messages of the Interface to Attic without success, till I used an Early-Medieval&Katharevousa-like syntax and all the problems were resolved! This is because the only form of Greek Legalese that existed in History was in the form of Early Medieval Greek when the Byzantine Emperors translated the Ius Romanus, a Law Corpus much more advanced than the Ancient Greek one, to their language. This doesn't mean that the Lexicon or the Morphophonology of the messages will be non-Attic, but just that in any case where there's no other choice the Stylistics and Syntax of the Medieval Greek Legalese should be consulted.
2) Modern notions of Pure & Applied Mathematics: I can see no way to translate words like quark either; furthermore I very strongly suggest to keep a disambiguating terminology in Mathematical articles -- see for example my work here: Talk:Wp/grc/Θετόν --, since up untill now such thing among all the "Scientese" languages exists only in English one. This practically means that words like Supermanifold should be translated as Σ(ο)υπερπολύπτυχον and in no case as Ὑπερπολύπτυχον. You see, in English Scientese in order to be able to coin more and more words for (Post-&Meta-) Modern Notions they come up with or discover, people use a technique (which I will call here Exotification) according to which you pick a foreign language's vocabulary (which is common to its natural speakers) and exploit the fact that it sounds exotic to the speakers of the adopting language and so use it in order to baptize the notions of a specific Scientific or Philosophical Discipline one's interested in. So what I'm saying is that in at least one Discipline (Modern Mathematics), this technique should be employed by Attico-Graecan Wikipedians. In the example that I gave before the Latin suffix Super- has an extremely strict meaning: Algebraic 2-Grading, while the Greek suffix is reserved for different mathematical connotations such as "extra-dimensional", "hyperspin-including", "Algebraic 3-Grading" et caetera hence Ὑπερπολύπτυχον should be reserved for those connotations and fine distinctions.
3) Finally there is a case where not only a Greek translation seems pointless but also the use of the Greek Alphabet as well: names of Musical Bands; I mean translations of a band's or a company's or a trademarked product's name occur in no Encyclopedia (exempli gratia the name of The Beatles is an untranslatable pun: Beat Music and beetle-bug) except for the relevant article's beginning section in the form of a clarification (see la: Iron Maiden); additionaly there are a few 'pedias that don't transcribe to their natural alphabet these names (Arabic, Bengali, Chinese, Georgian, Hebrew, Japanese, Russian, and Thai do but Armenian, Russian, Serbo-Croatian, and Modern Greek don't). But this latter point should be surely discussed further.
Lastly, I'm expecting to see more terms from either the Incubator-messsages or from Scientific Disciplines (such as the term microbe in Biology that needs a special translation; User:Glycon suggests ἀφανόβιον) to appear here so that I can contribute to their rendering to Attic!:-)
Omnipaedista 19:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- my friend, aren't there words in Katharevousa (the purified dialect) tradition for words like Algebra and others?. i think is possible to incorporate in our vocabulary?. of course, if they don't disturb classic semantic. Crazymadlover
- Scientific terms in Katharevousa are essentially exactly the same as in Dhimotiki (which you can see in my math-list) except that the words are polytonicized, and that the suffixes (and not the stems) of the words are Attic-like (at least orthographically). It is very fortunate indeed that many technical terms have already been translated to this form of Greek Language, however as you have noted here, Katharevousa is not Πανάκεια. Some neolatin terms have been transcribed exactly as they are, despite the fact that they don't make much Semantic sence in Greek, such as oxygen or microbe (it should have been rendered as βραχύβιον, ἀφανόβιον, or, μικρόζῳον, and not as μικρόβιον), or meanings of ancient words have been altered in order for these words to render modern common concepts: οἰκογένεια for family -- in its post-1850 Western sense -- (originally meaning "to be a born slave, not a bought one"), προσωπικός for personal (originally meaning "facial"), and βιομήχανος for industrialist (originally meaning "this who manages to survive due his ingeniousness, or versatility"). We could discuss whether these semantic shifts should be followed here, or whether new terms should be coined for those common concepts, as well. As for Algebra, there are a handful of languages that seem to have rendered it (Katharevousa isn't included in them) somehow, but none I can speak. I do intend to coin a Greek word for it but I do not intend to use it! About quark, it hasn't been translated to any language, as far as I know, so I just transcribed it as κουάρκιον or κϝάρκιον.
Omnipaedista 15:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Scientific terms in Katharevousa are essentially exactly the same as in Dhimotiki (which you can see in my math-list) except that the words are polytonicized, and that the suffixes (and not the stems) of the words are Attic-like (at least orthographically). It is very fortunate indeed that many technical terms have already been translated to this form of Greek Language, however as you have noted here, Katharevousa is not Πανάκεια. Some neolatin terms have been transcribed exactly as they are, despite the fact that they don't make much Semantic sence in Greek, such as oxygen or microbe (it should have been rendered as βραχύβιον, ἀφανόβιον, or, μικρόζῳον, and not as μικρόβιον), or meanings of ancient words have been altered in order for these words to render modern common concepts: οἰκογένεια for family -- in its post-1850 Western sense -- (originally meaning "to be a born slave, not a bought one"), προσωπικός for personal (originally meaning "facial"), and βιομήχανος for industrialist (originally meaning "this who manages to survive due his ingeniousness, or versatility"). We could discuss whether these semantic shifts should be followed here, or whether new terms should be coined for those common concepts, as well. As for Algebra, there are a handful of languages that seem to have rendered it (Katharevousa isn't included in them) somehow, but none I can speak. I do intend to coin a Greek word for it but I do not intend to use it! About quark, it hasn't been translated to any language, as far as I know, so I just transcribed it as κουάρκιον or κϝάρκιον.
- Regarding the question of whether we should follow the semantic shifts that have happened in Katharevousa words for modern concepts: I think we should use another word, or add something to make the meaning clear. This is why I have used the word μηχανή when writing about things such as television and computers; υπολογιστής, for example, would probably be interpreted by an Ancient Greek, as computor would be by a Roman, as being a person. Calling something a μηχανή makes it as clear as it can be about what we are writing. Leigh (talk) 19:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- I have followed this suggestion: I translated all machine-related-terms of the interface using circumlocutions; e.g.: server / ἐξυπηρετητικὴ μηχανή. The only "techie" term I left as a monolexic noun is browser / πλοηγός. I also came up with a Greek word for Algebra: Σχεσιολογία [study of relations], but as I said I don't intend to use it since I deem the οriginal term (a tribute to the method of al-ğabr "completion" exposed in the famous book of al-Khwārizmī) as a very distinctive one, bearing more connotations than just "relation-o-logy" (just as quantum bears more connotations than just "energy packet"). Omnipaedista 15:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I've just replaced my coined term οἰκογενεά by the attested term οἰκογένεια, since Familia "the property of having being a slave" is used in Vicipaedia in the nonclassical sense of "family" anyway, and since no Attic equivalent meaning "family" exists. I think that the same digression from Attic semantics should be done with προσωπικός and βιομηχανικός, as well, for the same reason. Omnipaedista 23:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
For avoiding loanwords and loan affixes[edit source]
I suggest if there is lack of words or affixes for build neologisms for exacts concepts, try to use the others greeks dialects (aeolian, etc)as you suggest here, koine and posterior literature (byzantine, katharevousa, etc). the nab is all of the new ones continue being "ancient greek" (pure as it were possible. with its semantic preserved).
example: Aeolic: ὄν(α) (upon)
- (Mycenaean: ὀπί (ob-); Aeolic: ἔνι (infra), ὄν(α) (sur(sum)-, upon-, retro-), παρός (prae-), πεδά (post-), ἀπύ (de-), περί (circum-); Katharevousa: ὑπερδιά (trans-), ἐπανά (re-), ἄπω (far), ἐς (at)) [no suffixes for ultra-, supra- or super- other than ὑπέρ are attested]
The prefixes above cover pretty much every possibility. The Aeolic ὄν, παρός, πεδά, and the Katharevousian ὑπερδιά, were not easy to find, but eventually helped me translate all the weird Mathematical terms' list (now, I'm working on a more trivial General Science terms catalogue). The only two prefixes that look exotic is σημί and συπέρ. The first is actually Protogreek (for a scientifically accepted reconstruction of Protogreek adverbs see: Chapter 17.1.5 of Beekes, R. S. P. 1995. Comparative Indo-European Linguistics. An Introduction. John Benjamins: Amsterdam/Philadelphia), and the second is the form super has in Katharevousa. Don't forget that these exotic prefixes are to be used only in the context of modern specialized mathematics in order to avoid critical ambiguities (see above the restored link about super denoting 2-Grading) and nowhere else so this should justify their use [Purism must have certain limits, too:)]; in every other article common vocabulary from the Classical Greek period can be implemented sufficiently. Also, in the case of some essentially nonsense words such as quark, sloop, squag; rock, rap, hip hop, jazz, funk (which haven't been translated to any language), I've just provided a phonetic transcription (see Wp/grc/Μουσική). However, in case where the names of some genres actually have a meaning I used Attic Greek as usual; a description of my rationale for certain murky translations has just appeared in the discussion page of Μουσική. Omnipaedista 16:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think that we should be able to use attested words from Ancient dialects other than Attic (it is, after all, an Ancient Greek wiki rather than an Attic one). However, I am wary about using reconstructed words and loanwords from non-Greek; I think they should be an absolute last resort. In most cases we can get by using two or three word phrases when we cannot think of a Greek word that will do the job (this is especially true of words to do with technology; having words like μηχανή makes things much easier). Leigh (talk) 19:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Τεχνολογία[edit source]
In this case we can follow the tradition of Kath(arevousa). again but only where is approp(riate). For example Leigh provided an excellent translation of television; for radio- (as a technology) there is a word that has the desired meaning: ἀκτ-ίς, -ῖνος, so radiology can be rendered as ἀκτινολογία, radiation as ἀκτινοβολία, and radioactivity as ἀκτινενέργεια (in the case of Radio as a medium and as an artform, we could consider a more complex word such as Ἀκτινοφωνο-, or even one containing the Latin radium, though there already exists a similar AGreek word meaning "cunning": ῥᾴδιος, so there might be confusion). Computer in Kath. is Ὑπολογιστής, satellite is Δορυφόρος, cell is (usually) Κυψέλη, and phone is Τηλέφωνον. So if it is o.k. I'll add those to the terms-list in their approp. form. Omnipaedista 18:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Neologism or circumlocution[edit source]
i realize that when Omnipaedista uses a neologism for Telephone, Leigh uses a circunlocution for television.
i ask me, should we prefer, most of case, to make a neologism or a circunlocution?
greek have the facility to built very long words to express ideas that another languages (even latin) require a complete phrase. but these words must to be grammatically correct ancient greek, and express without doubt the modern concept (in the mainly features, or the key idea). Don't worry to propose accurate neologisms.
circunlocution were useful if absolutely we cannot express the concept, or to avoid foreing affixes. Crazymadlover
- I think (multi)compound words (neologisms or not) are more preferable than circumlocutions (the former having been used in Greek since Homer's sagas if not earlier). Only μηχανή as a lexeme is a bit user-hostile, since Computer would have to be Λογισμομηχανή, and Television would be Τηλωπομηχανή, so in these cases we can follow what Leigh suggests and let them be as circumlocutions. Omnipaedista 04:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Some terms[edit source]
Hydrogene: in fact an hydrogene atom is a proton with a electron. it is the simplest form of a element. when the H atom lost its electron, is a simple proton. i guess, the name have to reflect this property, instead of a unique ciscunstance (maker of water).
Quantum. i think is possible to build a greek word for this concept, even more accurate than the latin one. The property of quantum (energy Pack), would be express in (pure) greek better.
Supercorde: it is the ultimate theory of the Physics. It is possible to make a "pure" greek word for this concept.
Internet: It would be possible to make a "pure" greek word that means "World logic Net" (more exact mean of the concept).
Atome: inaccurate word. it isn't indivisible. it is the "minimun chemical unity"
- Difficult. We could go with ἄτομον: it is attested and in a way an atom is indivisible. As far as I know, one can not divide an element into anything smaller than an atom; once one divides it again it is no longer the same element. If not, we can call them πρῶτα μέρεα, τὰ πρῶτα στοιχεῖων, or something similar. Leigh (talk) 00:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think Leigh's right. What modern Chemical Physicists call "Atom" may not be what Ancient Indian and Greeks (Leukippos, Demokritos) philosophers had in mind, but still it is a fundamental entity and that "one can not divide an element into anything smaller than an atom", and still dealing with chemical properties. Besides, naming conventions in Physics and Mathematics are paradoxically much more loose than those of Biology and the Social Sciences. [I intend to give my explanation of this phenomenon below]. On the same grounds, I rather disagree with changing the names of the other modern concepts above. Hydrogen is quite well rendered by Ὑδρότοκον since it follows the (originally German-French-Katharevousa) tradition of naming fundamental elements by just a well-known product of them: Πυρίτοκον (suggested by Leigh), Νιτρότοκον. As for Internet, it has been rendered (in this wiki by Leigh again) as Διαδίκτυο(ς|ν) which is an exact and concise word (also used in Kath. for the same concept). It would indeed be nice if we could use a single word that would literally mean "global system of computer internetworks" but it wouldn't be very user-friendly. As for quantum, it is not very translatable either, so I just transliterated it as κϝᾶντον. The point is that while when it was introduced in Physics it did mean "Energy packet" (in AGreek Δέμα ἐνεργείας), it has no longer this meaning exclusively, but as with many concept of Physics such as "charge", it is used in Algebraic Literature as well, meaning "(noncommutative-group-algebra/universal-enveloping-algebra that when being deformed is no longer an enveloping algebra)-related algebraic structure"! This is what is meant by quantum today, so I don't think a single neologism for this is feasible... Finally regarding, superstrings, of course we can translate it to "pure" AGreek, but we should not. Sorry for being so emphatic on this but I've already discussed it above and partially here. Its rendering in modern Greek is Ὑπερχορδή, the 2nd lexeme coming from AGreek χορδή, from reconstructed Protogreek */ghordā́/. However, I have been reading the Greek Physics Literature on Superstrings for the past 3 years and I can assure you that the term has been a confusion-disaster, because of its Greek suffix. In Superstring Theory, super has a clear Algebraic meaning; that's the third (and hopefully last) time I am saying this here: Algebraic 2-Grading, used when mathematical symmetries between bosons & fermions are to be constructed. On the other hand, hyper is used (again in Sting Theory and Quantum Field Theory) to denote "extra-dimensional", "hyperspin-including", "Algebraic 3(or more)-Grading"; there's even a Graph-theoretical concept named hyperstring (see here and there), where here hyper loosely means teleparallel and string "symbol-sequence". To sum up, if we translate, as Βικιπαίδεια does, as ὑπέρ both super and hyper in Mathematical-Physics-related articles, much of the content's clarity will be lost. To avoid that in other cases I introduced suffixes from Mycenean and Aeolian Greek in order to immitate the "Exotification technique" (see above) that made English the richest scientese in History; but in the case of super there seems to be no attested (or even reconstructed) word, having the desired meaning, other than ὑπέρ and the transliterated Latin σ(ο)ύπερ, ever used in Greek, thus I ended up with the spurious term Συπερχορδή, which I intend to use when I write an article on the subject. Omnipaedista 03:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- you have said: "translation according to AGreek. if westerns use it pesimely; we HAVE NOT follow them. Preserve the language unity and coherence is our duty". Are you referring to Arabic roots? In that case there are quite a lot of them that are really hard to translate without creating confusion: amalgam, alchemy, algebra, algorithm, alkali, aldehyde, alcohol, alkane, alkene, alkyne, benzine, to mention only a few (most of them are internationally accepted as they are). I have managed to translate some, but even then the corresponding Greek roots are generally already in use in other compound words (such as Βάσις for alkali already used in Mathematics and Engineering). Could you or anyone else find Greek words for all the above concepts? In case you are referring to names of elementary particles and chemical elements named after people or places, this is yet another international convention, valid since last century: people who dedicated their lives to science, or universities distinguished for the works of their researchers are honored not only by prizes but also by the immortalization of their names, when their most known and important discoveries are named after them; this honoring tradition is kept by every language in the world no matter how "pure" it is regarding its common vocabulary. Omnipaedista 17:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- No problem with words derived from proper name. Honor is not a problem. Crazymadlover
- The suffix -onium seems difficult to be translated, so temporarily(?) I used -όνι (it's a composition of -ον- from ἡλεκτρόνιον and the inflectible AGreek ending lexeme) -ι (search for τὸ Κόμμι (gum), τοῦ Κόμμεος in any good dictionary in order to find its full inflection). (Kath. doesn't help here; it keeps -όνιουμ as it is.) It's equally nonsense as -όνιον for -on, and -ῖνον for -ino; that is, a typical small suffix used to render intricate physical ideas, hardly describable by Human Language. Omnipaedista 08:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- Giving heads up: tried to coin a proper translation of Squag and Sloop but, meseems, we can't have anything but Σκϝάγιον and Σλούπιον. As I said above, in Physics and Mathematics, terminology is paradoxically much more loose than the corresponding ones of Biology and the Social Sciences, and I think the reasons for this are both ontological and sociological. Ontological because Mathematics deals with terms that are so abstract that no human language can describe them, so nonsense must be coined, and sociological, since Mathematicians don't have to prove anything, via their vocabulary, when it comes to the strictness and well-foundedness of their disciplines. This is unlike the case of the Social Sciences where every concept is and must be accurately rendered by the vocabulary. This is what I followed in trying to render terms from various disciplines. Omnipaedista 23:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- you have said: "translation according to AGreek. if westerns use it pesimely; we HAVE NOT follow them. Preserve the language unity and coherence is our duty". Are you referring to Arabic roots? In that case there are quite a lot of them that are really hard to translate without creating confusion: amalgam, alchemy, algebra, algorithm, alkali, aldehyde, alcohol, alkane, alkene, alkyne, benzine, to mention only a few (most of them are internationally accepted as they are). I have managed to translate some, but even then the corresponding Greek roots are generally already in use in other compound words (such as Βάσις for alkali already used in Mathematics and Engineering). Could you or anyone else find Greek words for all the above concepts? In case you are referring to names of elementary particles and chemical elements named after people or places, this is yet another international convention, valid since last century: people who dedicated their lives to science, or universities distinguished for the works of their researchers are honored not only by prizes but also by the immortalization of their names, when their most known and important discoveries are named after them; this honoring tradition is kept by every language in the world no matter how "pure" it is regarding its common vocabulary. Omnipaedista 17:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Ἰσχύς, Δύναμις, Εὐσθένεια, etc.[edit source]
(This thread has been posted by Crazymadlover on July 31, 2008, and it concerns the matter of discerning the intricate semantic differences among Ἰσχύς, Δύναμις, & Εὐσθένεια) Omnipaedista 12:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Force: Ἰσχύς (ἡ); Power: Δύναμις. I translate literally accordying to Ancient greek.
- I have two arguments in favor of rendering Force (Fortia) and Power (Vis) as Δύναμις & Ἰσχύς, correspodingly. As far as I know in Greek there was no distinction of these two words up untill a few decades ago where they were distinctively used in Kath. to denote the above English/Neolatin concepts as I say (thus the Modern Greek Wikipedia has Force as Δύναμη, and Power as Ισχύς). A second argument is that one of the four forces of nature is the Strong Force; strong can be translated either as Εὐσθενής or as Ἰσχυρή; so if one decides to use the latter the outcome would be "Ἰσχυρὴ Ἰσχύς" which sounds abundant. The only argument in favor of your rendering is that in modern Romance Languages Power is translated using (Pot-)-derived words: Potencia, Puissance, Putere, Potenza, and the traditional Greek root corresponding to Pot- is indeed Δυναμ-. Would you like to offer a stronger argument in favor of any of those positions?. Omnipaedista
- Permit me, transcribe some post about this topic, sent in a classicist list, it could help:
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From: "Owen Cramer" <OCramer@COLORADOCOLLEGE.EDU> Add sender to Contacts To: CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU A big question, and not just in Greek. At random, I'd start with the opening of Aeschylus's Prometheus, where the functionaries of Zeus's new regime are Bia and Kratos, often translated as Force and Power. They are accompanied by Hephaistos, who has the capacity (perhaps dunamis) to shackle Prometheus to the rock--it would be interesting to read the scene for related vocabulary. Where there's a verb either back of the noun (like dunamai/dunamis) or derived from it (like krateo/kratos) you can get some flavor. The words connected to sthenos "strength" refer to muscle-power, I think. I'd recommend Hannah Arendt's _On Violence_, a philosophical investigation starting from the *modern* confusion of power, strength, force, authority and violence. Is water-boarding, e. g., a type of exercise of authority or is it violence?
Owen Cramer Colorado College 14 E. Cache la Poudre Colorado Springs, CO 80903 719.389.6443 fax 719.227.8334 Owen.Cramer@coloradocollege.edu
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From: "John M. McMahon" <mcmahon@LEMOYNE.EDU> Add sender to Contacts To: CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU
Some info on dunamis ...
In terms of the physical world, especially wrt alchemy and magic, dunamis represents the essential force of things, both animate and inanimate. In general it operates in the same wider semantic field as ousia and phusis wrt the animal and vegetable world.
Dunamis may be regarded as a kind of a non-physical -- almost spiritual -- concept based in tangible form. In magical contexts it may come close to what we would consider chemical composition. There's some coverage of this in J. Rohr, Der okkulte Kraftgegriff (Leipzig: 1924), 8 and M. Mauss, A General Theory of Magic. Trans. R. Brain (London: 1972), 102.
In medicine the term represents the concept of a pharmacological property, approximating the modern idea of the active principle of a drug. For this see J. Riddle, Dioscorides on Pharmacy and Medicine (Austin: 1985), 288, n. 122.
JMM / LMC
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From: "Scott Kennedy" <dustiescott222755@HOTMAIL.COM> Add sender to Contacts To: CLASSICS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU
A good question as to the semantical differences between the words. I don't claim to be an expert Hellenist, but I'll give it my little bit.
Dynamis-dynamis is basically your all purpose word for power, strength, force. Its usage depends on the context, though if it helps, it is commonly used as a verb dynamai meaning essentially to have it in one's capacity to do something i.e. I can, I am able (there is also an expression ose^ dynamis meaning roughly the same thing). Dynamis is also used to refer to military forces besides its magical and otherwise dynamics as pointed out.
Kratos-kratos is from the verb kratein+gen. (to rule, hold), which can alternately be explained as exein kratos+gen. (to have rule, hold). The word also can be applied to mean the empire, domain, etc. For its definition I would lean more towards 'control' given the word egkrate^s mean either to be in control of something, or to have self-control. In composite verb forms it also refers to duration of time as in diakrateia and diakratein.
Bia-bia is a bit of an oddity if it is used like that in Aeschylus. I would call it 'coercion' under duress, but then dramatists are impossible to translate (look at Oidipous ho tyrannos, variously Oedipus the King, when the audience knew full well it was a play on sovereign and usurper, that is someone who has power that is not theirs). I tend to think of it more as 'violence' with biai and kata kratos meaning about the same thing, that is by force. The best I can do is, to do something not gently.
Ischys-this word is very difficult to contrast with dynamis, though it can be done. For example:
1. ouk ischusen ton Euphrate^n diaperwthe^nai ho stratos
2. ouk edunato ton Euphrate^n diaperwthe^nai ho stratos
Both sentences say that 'The army was not able to cross the Euphrates River', but in the first with the verb of ischys, the implication is that the army did not have the strength itself to cross. It was a feat it could not surmount. The second is basically the same thing though you might construe it as the army was not able to cross the river because of the weather. There is a very slight difference, if any, between these words, though ischuw is generally to be able to get through, surmount something. As a noun, ischys usually denotes superiority of strength, dominance perhaps. A medical treatise I was reading Peri gone^s, that is about making babies, when referring to how a child becomes boy or girl based on their parents refers to the ischyotaton meros, the strongest/dominant part, as deciding the gender.
Sthenos-sthenos is almost always as I have seen it referring to physical strength or prowess. We would call, I think, in the Ancient Greek language those huge bodybuilders with bulky arms eusthene^s, that is very strong. If a I remember correctly, I have seen sthenos referring to the strength, the might, of one's limbs, etc.
Rho^me^-This noun from what I have seen is like sthenos, though I don't believe it is ever used in combination with a body limb. Here is an example from a historian of eleventh century Michael Attaleiates, "kai pesein ekinduneusen, ei me^ exeileto touton akatagwniste^ rhyme^i kai rho^me^ Nikephoros magistros o Botaneiates.
[and he might well have fallen in battle, had not Nikephoros Botaneiates saved him with an incontestable charge and his own sheer strength]."
Scott Kennedy
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The Four Fundamental Forces of Nature[edit source]
Here are the AGreek names I propose for the fundamental forces of Nature (here listed from the strongest to the weakest):
- Strong Nuclear Force: Εὐσθενὴς Πυρηνικὴ Δύναμις
- Electromagnetism {Electricity & Magnetism}: Ἠλεκτρομαγνητισμός {Ἠλεκτρικότης (Ἠλεκτρισμός) & Μαγνητικότης (Μαγνητισμός}}
- Weak Nuclear Force: Ἀσθενὴς Πυρηνικὴ Δύναμις
- Gravitation (the attractive influence that all objects with mass exert on each other) / Gravity (a force supposed to be the cause of this attraction): Βαρύτισις / Βαρύτης
Regarding other fundamental concepts of physics:
- P (Power) = I (Current) x V (Differential Potential)
- (Ἰσχύς) = (Ῥέον or Ῥεῦμα) x (Διαφορικὸν Δυναμικόν)
Thanks for uploading the opinions above, Crazymadlover (I hope you don't mind calling you by your translatewiki pseudonym --it makes things less impersonal--); they helped me with some terms in Biology. Alas, they weren’t very helpful concerning the Physics. I insist on my rendering but I will not change the main page until we have a real consensus here on the talk page. Another argument of mine is that Δύναμις (Vis) has been used since the Middle Ages to denote a fundamental Force of any kind (Vis Vitalis:Ζωϊκὴ Δύναμις). I would like to know Leigh’s opinion on this discussion.
Omnipaedista 20:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately my knowledge of physics is limited to vague memories of what I learnt in high school, so I can't really help here. Leigh (talk) 00:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- After reading again the texts above, I have changed my mind about my proposition, and now I think that C.m.l. (Crazymadlover) is right, after all. My first argument about the use of Δύναμις & Ἰσχύς was not very valid, since these two words have lost their initial meaning since the end of the Classic times (the latter one was dead for centuries before being revived in Modern Greek), thus we should consult the Classics if we are to revive them in their original context: since by definition the electrical power delivered to a "component" is the product of the potential difference by the current of electricity flowing through it, and since the word itself is etymologically related to the Latin root pot-, it should be translated as Δύναμις. My second argument was that if we chose to render force as Ἰσχύς, then Strong Force would have a redundant translation. But as long as we render adjectives such as strong/weak using derivatives of the root σθεν- no issue of bad Aesthetics can arise. Conclusion: Strong Nuclear Force/Interaction: Εὐσθενὴς Πυρηνικὴ Ἰσχύς/Ἀλληλεπίδρασις, Power: Δύναμις. Omnipaedista 17:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Proper names[edit source]
i start the a discussion about the translation of proper name. you can participate, entering here. Crazymadlover
- As I already wrote, everything depends on what kind of AGreek pronunciation we are using (a fixed phonemic/phonetic pattern which is to be used throughout the Graecan wiki). For example in order to avoid confusion, we can select the early Attic Greek one (where ῳ/ῃ are different from ω/η, is υι different from from long υ, but ει is closer to η than to εϊ, οϝ is different from ου, υ is a frontal vowel). The only deviations from it might be the use ϝ (oϝ, oυϝ, ιϝ, /w/ in initial position or CwV position, but not intervocalically (so for example Novial should be rendered as Νόϝιαλ); also in case that one is obliged not to use αῦ, εῦ, but αύ, εύ, in some transcription, (s)he could use αϝ, εϝ instead (so that the glide /w/ can be rendered properly). A final deviation from Attic is that the letter ζ might render not only /zd/ but also /zz/ (intervocalically) and /z/ (word-initially/-finally, before-/ after- consonants). These are the rules (without the use of digamma of course) that are generally followed for the transcription of foreign names in most of the articles this Wikipedia since its creation (see the transliteration of country names in Wp/grc/Ἀσία, Wp/grc/Λιβύη, Wp/grc/Εὐρώπη created a year ago), and in books such as Harry Potter and Asterix translated into Classical Greek. Omnipaedista 15:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Speaking of transcriptions, there is a small issue with words such as τεῖ-ον versus τέ-ι-ον IPA:[té.ì.on]. First of all, we have a new contributor (at last!), Adolapts, who seems to be grecophone (welcome, if you are reading this and planning to continue contributing here). He edited the Greek word for Tea; namely, he replaced τεῖον by τέιον (Kath. spelling). In principle, this could go as well (e.g. one could write an article about en:Tea, using any of the two renditions). But there are some arguments, why one could prefer the τεῖον. The first one is that the (C)V.V.V(C) succession of syllables may be very popular in Kath., but it's considered highly awkward in Ancient Greek (chasmoedia - χασμῳδία is the term). Remember that diphthongs don't count as two syllables, so τεῖον (a word that is my atticization of the Katharevousian term) is syllabically analyzed as (C)VV.V(C) and is pronounced as [téì.on] or [téè.on] (and not as ['ti.on], since we are in an Ancient Greek wiki); thusly, it is more natural morphophonologically (the only (CV)V.V.V(C)-containing word used here is -ποι-ί-α [poi.í.à], but again it is used very scarcely, if ever). The second reason is that IPA:[téè.on] is closer to the original chinese word tê, and in this wiki there is a tendency to keep the transciptions of foreign words as close to their original form (that's why Crazymadlover and I employed the use of the digamma) --or in the case of city/country names, as Nychus proposed, as close to their Latin renditions--, as possible.
note: {IPA: en:International Phonetic Alphabet, C: consonant, V: vowel, . : syllable boundary} Omnipaedista 12:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- Speaking of transcriptions, there is a small issue with words such as τεῖ-ον versus τέ-ι-ον IPA:[té.ì.on]. First of all, we have a new contributor (at last!), Adolapts, who seems to be grecophone (welcome, if you are reading this and planning to continue contributing here). He edited the Greek word for Tea; namely, he replaced τεῖον by τέιον (Kath. spelling). In principle, this could go as well (e.g. one could write an article about en:Tea, using any of the two renditions). But there are some arguments, why one could prefer the τεῖον. The first one is that the (C)V.V.V(C) succession of syllables may be very popular in Kath., but it's considered highly awkward in Ancient Greek (chasmoedia - χασμῳδία is the term). Remember that diphthongs don't count as two syllables, so τεῖον (a word that is my atticization of the Katharevousian term) is syllabically analyzed as (C)VV.V(C) and is pronounced as [téì.on] or [téè.on] (and not as ['ti.on], since we are in an Ancient Greek wiki); thusly, it is more natural morphophonologically (the only (CV)V.V.V(C)-containing word used here is -ποι-ί-α [poi.í.à], but again it is used very scarcely, if ever). The second reason is that IPA:[téè.on] is closer to the original chinese word tê, and in this wiki there is a tendency to keep the transciptions of foreign words as close to their original form (that's why Crazymadlover and I employed the use of the digamma) --or in the case of city/country names, as Nychus proposed, as close to their Latin renditions--, as possible.
- On the other hand, there is another problem with the ending -εῖον: it usually denotes only places! There is however a solution: in order to avoid a word with a vowel-hiatus, but at the same time not coin a word to denote a herbal but ending with a suffix denoting places, we could just use τέον [té.òn] (root: te-, ending: -ον) for the herbal, and keep τεῖον only for denoting the shop that sells it. Omnipaedista 10:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- For the sake of linguistics, I remark that there are some Greek words ending with -εῖον, such as ἀρχεῖον, ἐργαλεῖον, βραβεῖον, and φορεῖον, that are not referring to places in an obvious way. But still, these are rare and well-established exceptions. Omnipaedista 23:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Latinisms[edit source]
I found some latinisms replaced lack of ancient greek words, like for example saccus.
I have a greek-latin-spanish dictionary, when i looking for a greek equivalent for saccus, i found these. I don't know if they are accurate:
δoρός; φόλλις; κόρυκoς; πηρα; σαγίς; θυλάκιov, θυλακίσκιov; θυλακίσκoς,θύλακoς; θυλακίσκη; θύλαξ.
- The most accurate of them is θύλαξ (male, genitive: θύλακος), or dialectally θύλακος (male, genitive: θυλάκου). Just a note: as was the case with Vulgar Latin that contained many "germanicisms" and "celticisms", so was the case with Vulgar (=Koine) Greek that contained many latinisms. Of cource, this is mainly an Attic wiki, since it employs Attic phonology and grammar, but it is also a generally Ancient Greek one, so Koine latinisms should not be a priori excluded. Of course. as with Vicipaedia, it will almost always be more favorable to use a more Classical vocabulary than a "Vulgar" one.
Omnipaedista 03:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- Note: for the record σάκκος "sack, bag" is an Ancient Greek word of Semitic origin. It became saccus in Latin and then it was probably reborrowed by the Byzantine Greeks (which would explain why it was so successfully preserved in modern Greek as σάκος) or, alternatively, just survived the passage from Ancient to Medieval Greek. --Omnipaedista 16:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Byte[edit source]
This thread is mainly for opinion, and the subject is about the rendition of word "Byte" into french as "Octete". What are your opinion? Crazymadlover.
- Do you mean "into French", or "or into Traditional Greek as in French"? In French it is octet (masc.), and in modern Greek, this has been rendered as δυφιοοκτάδα (Καθαρεύουσα: δυφιοοκτάς). Other words for byte in kath. are δυφιολέξις, & δυφιοσυλλαβή; all of the above terms can be used in this 'pedia, of course. --Omnipaedista 17:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Σύπερ vs Ὑπερ[edit source]
Since super comes from two Indo-European roots eks and uperi, super can be translated into Ancient Greek as ἐξύπερ since Ancient Greek utilizes both roots as ἐξ and ὑπερ and also since ultra means beyond instead of using ὑπερ we can use πέρα.
Bulleted list = κατάλογος μετὰ κοκκίδων?[edit source]
Bulleted list = (ὁ) κατάλογος μετὰ κοκκίδων
Numbered list = (ὁ) ἀριθμήμενος κατάλογος (but for some reason the accent in Katharevousa is "ἀριθμημένος")
Web page = (ἡ) ἱστοσελίς
What do you think of these translations? Anaxicrates (talk) 22:08, 20 November 2023 (UTC)