Talk:Wp/cop/ⲧⲡⲁⲣⲁⲧⲟⲛⲓⲟⲛ (ⲑⲱϣ)

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Latest comment: 5 years ago by Ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ

Hello everyone. I was making a map of governorate so i've decided to discuss the names of it's subdivisions first.

  • Al-Hamam – i would suggest to just use ϩⲁⲙⲁⲙ here
  • Al-Alamain – ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓⲟⲩ
  • Al-Dabaa – Barrington Atlas shows the town called Caportis on the site of modern Dabaa, so we could use ⲕⲁⲡⲟⲣⲧⲓⲥ/ⲕⲁⲡⲟⲣϯ or just ⲧⲁⲡⲁ, i guess both are fine
  • Matrouh – ⲡⲁⲣⲁⲓⲧⲟⲛⲓⲟⲛ/ⲡⲁⲣⲁⲓⲧⲟⲛⲓ/ⲡⲁⲣⲉⲧⲟⲛⲓ. Here i like "Coptisized" version better, but i'm fine with both.
  • Al-Negaila ̅ Barrington Atlas shows the village Chautaion/Chettaia near the modern town, so we could use ⲭⲁⲩⲧⲁⲓⲟⲛ/ⲭⲉⲧⲧⲁⲓⲁ or even "Coptisize" it a bit
  • Sidi-Barrani – ⲉⲛⲛⲉⲥⲩⲫⲟⲣⲁ
  • As-Sallum – ancient Catabathmos, so we could take ⲕⲁⲧⲁⲃⲁⲑⲙⲟⲥ. There's also Arabic name Akabah attested, which i believe is derived from Catabathmos, and it also feels to me like derived from simplisized Coptic name of the complicated Greek one. So maybe it should be something like ⲕⲁⲡⲟ? I don't know for sure, cause i don't have much information about it.
  • Siwa– ϣⲉϣⲁⲙⲟⲩ

--ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 13:16, 1 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

I would either go with the Greek names or take over the Arabic ones. We can also create Coptic ones, but I would not go too far (i.e. not take ⲡⲁⲣⲁⲧⲟⲩⲛ because this is not how a Greek word would have evolved in Coptic). For As-Sallum it seems there is also the name "Kabathlion", but in google it shows up only in or two works. Where does ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓⲟⲩ come from? If we wanna take the Arabic name of Al-Hamam, we should write ⲁⲗϩⲁⲙⲁⲙ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:04, 1 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
By the way, I've remembered where i got "Baretoun" from. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 00:49, 15 January 2019 (UTC)Reply
ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓⲟⲩ is just a translation of Al-Alamein. As it's dual form of علم, i just created dual form of ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ, which comes from Ancient Egyptian -wy and is still present in some Coptic words (like ⲥⲫⲟⲧⲟⲩ or ⲫⲁϩⲟⲩ). You're right about Al-Hamam, it should me ⲁⲗϩⲁⲙⲁⲙ. Other names can be easily taken from Greek as it seems like they were mostly found by Greeks. But what do you think about Catabathmos/Akabah? --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 10:49, 4 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
In cases where we can't reconstruct a Coptic form with certainty, I would go with the Greek name (or the Arabic). ⲕⲁⲧⲁⲃⲁⲑⲙⲟⲥ seems fine.
The dual requires some vowel changes within the word, because the shift in the stress would have caused different outcomes for the singular, dual and plural forms in Coptic. The dual of ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ (< *mínyaw) would rather be something like ⲙⲛⲏⲟⲩ (< *miníyawwVj). ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 17:44, 4 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
I've just took a second look at Barrington Atlas map and realised there's actually used to be a Greek settlement on place of modern Al-Hamam called Χειμω (Χίω,Χι), so we could take one of these forms for Al-Hamam. The same goes for Al-Alamein – it's Greek name is Ἀντίφραι (Ἀντιφίλου), so we could take this form as well. So let's wait what others say. --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 22:04, 4 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
Of course, it would be better to have Coptic forms. But if there are none and the reconstruction is not certain, I think we dont have any other choice than to adopt the Greek names. How sure are you with ⲙⲛⲏⲟⲩ? It looks like it could be a plural of ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ too. (Which wouldnt be a problem, we could just translate it as "flags".) Still, even if we take the Greek names first, we can still rename them afterwards if we come up with something better. Are the greek towns you found exactly at the place where today's towns are? Because if not, than we would eventually have the problem that if we need to talk about both, we would only have one name for it. In such cases, we could also take the Arabic names. Furthermore, as far as the Greek names are concerned, I would take the Standard Ancient Greek names and not Copticize them. If we want something more Coptic, we could discuss it case by case. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 20:33, 5 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
Yes, the towns i've mentioned above are direct predecessors of modern ones, expect Al-Negaila/Chautaion,Chettaia but they are so close to each other that it's safe to assume modern town is a successor of ancient one. I don't think ⲙⲛⲏⲟⲩ or ⲛⲓⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ is a very good idea already, considering we have an Ancient Greek name. But i'm fine with direct translation too.--ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 08:17, 7 August 2018 (UTC)Reply
Then lets take the attested greek names for now. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:57, 7 August 2018 (UTC)Reply