Template_talk:Wp/cop/Infobox scientist

Nationality

These are the available options (bold means currently selected):

• ⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲃⲁⲕⲓ: وطنى
• ⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲕⲁϩⲓ: ترابى، ارضى

Good question. The first one is in a very similar sense already attested in Coptic, and it is similarly built as the word for citizenship in many European languages (Arabic uses a different pattern). Is citizenship and nationality the same? On the other hand, the good thing about ⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲕⲁϩⲓ is, that it is more obvious as the basic word ⲕⲁϩⲓ means country. And I think it would be very pleasant if we keep it as streightforward as possible. Also, if we think about the time when we'll need a word for bourgeois, bourgeoisie, we could use ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲃⲁⲕⲓ for bourgeois and ⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲃⲁⲕⲓ for bourgeoisie. (Or we could use ⲡⲟⲩⲣϣⲟⲩⲁⲥⲓⲁ for the latter, I like this too; although it is a bit unnecessary to use this word if we would have the chance to set up a real Coptic one).--ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14 August 2017 (UTC)

So, again about this here: What do you wanna use for 'bourgeoisie'? ⲡⲟⲩⲣϣⲟⲩⲁⲥⲓⲁ ? --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16 September 2017

Field

There are the available options (bold means currently selected):

• ϯⲕⲟⲓ `ⲛⲡⲓϫⲓⲛⲕⲱϯ: the research field
• ⲡⲓⲓⲟϩⲓ `ⲛⲡⲓϫⲓⲛⲕⲱϯ: the research field

Totally fine with both. If you prefer ⲕⲟⲓ, let's do it. --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Signature

For now, we are using the word ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ to mean signature (which is the same word we use to mean flag).

We could create a new word which only means signature. There are several possibilities. Either we use ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ as it is (although we should try to avoid putting to much different meanings in a single word), or we build a new word:

I'd prefer one of these options: We look how other languages have set up a word for signature: In many languages, it is something like "under(the)letter/document", like Russian по́дпись, German Unterschrift or Greek υπογραφή. In Coptic, this yields ϧⲁⲥϧⲁⲓ. Others use something like "hand-line", like Urdu دستخط‏ or Dutch handtekening. This would yield ⲥⲓⲣ `ⲛⲧⲱⲣⲓ. (ⲥⲓⲣ is Sahidic, but I don't think that's a problem - we should prefer to take over words from other dialects before we take them from other languages or put too much meaning in a single Bohairic word). What do you think? --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Changed ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ to ⲥϧⲁⲓ ⲉϥⲉⲛⲧⲟⲧ. In Moawad Dawoud's dictionary (page 425a), ⲥϧⲁⲓ ⲉϥⲉⲛⲧⲟⲧ already means signature. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 06:17, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't like ⲥϧⲁⲓ ⲉϥⲉⲛⲧⲟⲧ very much, because it could just mean 'official letter' too. But if you stick to ⲥϧⲁⲓ ⲉϥⲉⲛⲧⲟⲧ, it's OK, I won't protest it. --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16 September 2017

There is already a word for signature. And it is used abundantly in Coptic texts: ⲥⲏⲙⲉⲓⲟⲛ (with variants ⲥⲓⲙⲓⲟⲛ, ⲥⲏⲙⲓ and many others). So actually, I think it would be better not to create new words for it if we already have ⲡⲓⲥⲏⲙⲉⲓⲟⲛ. -بطرس مرقس on 09/24/2017

ⲥⲏⲙⲉⲓⲟⲛ looks Greek to me (correct me if I'm wrong). Let's just stick to ⲥϧⲁⲓ ⲉϥⲉⲛⲧⲟⲧ for now, it's Egyptian and already means signature. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 23:40, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

ⲥϧⲁⲓ ⲉϥⲉⲛⲧⲟⲧ just does mean something different. And I don't think we necessarily have to use Moawad Dawoud's personal creations if there is already an existing word. ⲥⲏⲙⲉⲓⲟⲛ shows up in many texts and manuscripts when Coptic was actually still spoken and is not a modern invention. I also prefer real Egyptian words, but why do you prefer a new invention to a word which has been used in Coptic texts since around 600 AD? -بطرس مرقس on 09/24/2017

I do not know if there was an orginal reference that Moawad Dawoud used, or he actually invented the word ⲥϧⲁⲓ ⲉϥⲉⲛⲧⲟⲧ. However, if it is the latter, I would, then, still prefer ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ's translation like ϧⲁⲥϧⲁⲓ or ⲥⲓⲣ `ⲛⲧⲱⲣⲓ, and that's just my personal preference. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 00:30, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Although ϧⲁⲥϧⲁⲓ is also newly created, I would prefer ϧⲁⲥϧⲁⲓ to ⲥϧⲁⲓ ⲉϥⲉⲛⲧⲟⲧ (and ⲥⲓⲣ `ⲛⲧⲱⲣⲓ) because the problem with using a lot of these loose compounds is that they all have different, literal meanings. [ⲥⲉⲣ(ⲛ)ⲧⲱⲣⲓ would be better than ⲥⲓⲣ `ⲛⲧⲱⲣⲓ in this case, because we could use the first one with a fixed meaning and leave the loose compound formation for those incidents when we need a literal "line of the hand"] The advantage with ϧⲁⲥϧⲁⲓ is, that it cannot easily confused with its literal meaning 'below the writing', because 'signature' would require the article ⲡⲓ and more importantly, one would use rather ϩⲓⲡⲉⲥⲏⲧ `ⲛ(ⲡⲓ)ⲥϧⲁⲓ for a literal 'below the writing' anyway. -بطرس مرقس on 09/25/2017

Alternatives (Other Options)

I just realized that ⲙⲏⲓⲛⲓ was also Greek :). Anyway, here are some other options that we can vote for. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 04:02, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

• ϫⲱⲣⲙ (Sahidic): verb that means make sign, ϭⲱⲣⲉⲙ (Bohairic). [CD 785b]
• ϩⲙⲛⲧⲱⲣⲉ (Sahidic): noun that means token or أمارة. [CD 678b-679a]
  • ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ might like this one since he proposed to use ⲧⲱⲣⲓ as in ⲥⲓⲣ `ⲛⲧⲱⲣⲓ.

@ⲥⲏⲙⲉⲓⲟⲛ: I did not know the word. In Wörterbuch der griechischen Wörter in den koptischen dokumentarischen Texten it seems it is (was) indeed used widely and we could use it too.

I need a word for password or passphrase too, as I try to translate the interwiki stuff. Crum says that ϩⲉⲙⲛⲧⲱⲣⲓ may also mean password. Should I use ϩⲉⲙⲛⲧⲱⲣⲓ for password? Or rather ⲥⲏⲙⲉⲓⲟⲛ? We could use ϩⲉⲙⲛⲧⲱⲣⲓ for signature, and ⲥⲏⲙⲉⲓⲟⲛ for passphrase. Or if you don't wanna have any Greek words, ϧⲁⲥϧⲁⲓ for signature and ϩⲉⲙⲛⲧⲱⲣⲓ for passphrase/word. --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 25 September 2017