Talk:Wp/mui/Laman Luan

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Standard language[edit]


Tabek dulur-dulur galo,

Tobo nak ngusul pacak dak?

Uji tobo, lemakla Wikipedia ni makek baso sari-sari bae. Tujuan utamo adonyo Wikipedia tu supayo elmu ni pacak dibagike ke sebanyak mungken wong. Amen kito nak makek bebaso nian pecaknyo gek malah dak katek yang pacak mbaco apo nak mbantu nules. Ini bae la betaun-taun mase mak inila katek perubahan.

Iyo nian memang baso alus pecak ini lah nak nglengit, cuman Wikipedia ni arus bekembang. Mada'i nak mak ini bae. Dakke la wong se-Palembang galak melok amen dak tereti. Tebuang bae kito nak senianan bebaso tapi katek jugo yang baco. Genti bae ke baso sari-sari, yaken pasti ado yang nak mbantu. Trafik laman ni lah besak lur, tapi idak banyak yang nak bantu nules. Padahal men dijingok, wong Palembang tu jutaan. Mada'i kalah dari Gorontalo yang punyo Wikipedia doken.

Sikok lagi, siapo yang nak senianan kontribusi, tobo mintak usulannyo pasal ejaan samo dialek yang dipakek. Tobo nyelek riwayat beberapo laman begenti-genti terus ejaannyo. Mupakat bae, kito makek dialek Palembang Ilir (Kuto), mak mano? Biar namo basonyo "Musi" dialek standarnyo yang paling banyak wong tereti yo logat Palembang. Tobo nak ngusul pulok pasal ejaan, tapi gek abes ini lah sepakat galo.

Mak mano lur?


I've following this incubator since years ago, but never see any meaningful improvement. I had contributed several times here, but I can see that some later editors change the spelling or diction. Even this page, if you look back long enough, was actually written in a different language variety.

The main page here is using the "high" variety of Musi, Bebaso. The problem is, this variety is based on another language, High Javanese (jv), so it doesn't represent the way Palembang folks speak in daily life. I can understand some Bebaso words used in this page, but most of my friend don't. There is no standardized education of this language, and Bebaso is only understood by a smaller community inside Palembang itself.

What is the point of creating a Wikipedia no one will be able to read? In my humblest opinion, eventhough I agree that Bebaso variety of Musi/Palembang is in danger, it shouldn't be a barrier for us to contribute here. We should just switch to the daily register, the way the language is used in daily life, the variety that most people can understand. We won't have enough people to contribute if we stick to the high variety.

To be clear, I am not saying that the low variety is better than the high one. I am not into linguistic purism. This is just out of practicality. The more people we can get here, it will be easier to develop this project. Also we should discuss about standard orthography and dialect used. I suggest we stick to the Urban Palembang dialect, because it is the de facto standard dialect of Musi, which is also used as lingua franca among other languages speakers in South Sumatra (a province with ~9 million people). Though I think it must be accepted if somebody use dialectal words, as long as the overall text is comprehensible enough to most speakers.

So, what do you think?

-- Masjawad99 (talk) 12:40, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

User:Masjawad99, Hi, I'm a Javanese speaker & surprisingly can get the gist of Bebaso. I agree with your point. Your thought is what I thought the first time I saw this page. You don't have to insist high register to be the language of this Wikipedia if it only forbids more pople to contribute. The case also happened to the Javanese Wikipedia where it was once written in high register, but now it is in low register by considering the readerships and contributors. I agree that more contributors can take part if the Wikipedia is written in the daily language of the people.

And hi, this is Wikipedia. You are encouraged to make changes, including changing the register of the language. There is no community yet for the Musi language, so you have chance to make big steps for this wiki for better readership. Cheers. Wirjadisastra (talk) 13:21, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

I had contributed here once or twice in the past. However at that time I wasn't really into Wikipedia, so I abandon it. I see that there are actually some people that used to be active here until somebody change the register. That's why I put this subject here so that anyone can see why I change it to the daily register. I will reorganize this wiki (there are lots of nonsense articles) and rework the Main Page. Hope it will attracts many new people to contribute. Thanks for the reply! Masjawad99 (talk) 00:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
User:Masjawad99 I see. I'm willing to help to make this Wiki better, except writing articles (I have very little knowledge on this language). Usually I tag irrelevant articles for deletion, redesign the main page, and do categorization for Indonesian local language Wikipedias. Currently, I'm also patrolling the Madurese Wikipedia since its activity is increasing these days. Feel free to contact the administrators if you need more information to improve this wiki. Wirjadisastra (talk) 01:50, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

User:Wirjadisastra Can you help me to delete all articles that has Kelakar in their names? They are irrelevant to this site. Masjawad99 (talk) 03:09, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

User:Masjawad99 I've tagged the kelakars for deletion. Articles about numbers also seem irrelevant for this wiki, but I leave them untagged. In case you want me to tag them too, please let me know. How is your plan to start this wiki anyway? Wirjadisastra (talk) 03:37, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

User:Wirjadisastra Yes I think all the articles about numbers can be deleted. I think I will start this by adding some Palembang-related articles first, and then just some common things like animals, plants, places, etc. Masjawad99 (talk) 05:19, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

User:Masjawad99 Done tagging! Wirjadisastra (talk) 14:05, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

User:StevenJ81 Sorry to bring you here, but we're discussing the deletion here. Wirjadisastra (talk) 15:42, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

@Wirjadisastra, Masjawad99: That's fine. If there's an open discussion I'm very happy to see it.
You can choose whatever language register you want. I personally recommend allowing as many (that have standards) as possible (high, standard, whatever). Low registers that are spoken but have no standard written form should probably be avoided. That said, if the claim here is that one or more registers here is the "lingua franca of South Sumatra", and that you would want this project to be usable by the entire community there, you should carefully allow dialect words. My recommendation would go along the following lines:
  • If there is a dialect word that also has a word in the standard register, don't duplicate the page. Instead, start the lede of the article something like "Foo (known in [[||||Wp/mui/Xyz dialect|Xyz dialect]] as goo) is ..."—or else have an etymology section right below the lede describing dialect variants.
  • If the dialect word has no parallel, then allow the page.
Whether you may want the project to allow many parallel dialects to include content simultaneously is a different question. Alemannisch Wikipedia does this quite successfully, but it's not always easy, either.
Any questions, please let me know. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:59, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
On the subject of "Kelakar": What is that, and why is that irrelevant to the project? Also, articles on numbers can potentially be encyclopedic. Tag them for deletion if they have only trivial content and you don't want to rebuild them. But think twice before deleting any with real content. See, for example, en:4—a perfectly reasonable article. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:59, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Also, @Wirjadisastra, why did you move a template from one test into another? Better to copy and leave both behind. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
@StevenJ81 Hi. I'm sorry. Would you mind to show me which one? I patrol several Indonesian-local-language Wikipedias. Wirjadisastra (talk) 03:40, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
@Wirjadisastra: You moved Template:Wp/osi/Halaman Otama/kop kangan to Template:Wp/mad/Halaman Otama/kop kangan. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:49, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
User:StevenJ81 About the register chosen, the high register is not a standardized language either. They are both used mainly in oral communication, but the high register is used within a smaller social group. When we write, we usually use Standard Malay (ms) or Indonesian (id) but not the high register. The low register has much more speakers and there has been some standardization effort already, with increasing usage in written media. There are already dictionaries and researches published on the low register, while the high register still lacks them. It is also used partly in mass media, both print (daily newspapers) and online. The State Islamic University of Palembang has also planned to publish the first complete Quran translation by the end of 2018. I can use these resources as references for the standard language in this wiki. (in Indonesian) Masjawad99 (talk) 17:56, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
User:StevenJ81 Regarding the kelakars, they are basically just jokes and funny anecdotes in our language. They are not even proper articles. Some of them are taken from a newspaper daily section about funny stories. Nothing will be lost if you delete them. Perhaps they will be useful for Wikisources, but they should not belong here. Masjawad99 (talk) 17:56, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Also about dialects, they are mostly just different diction, so we don't really need to change the whole written form. I agree with your suggestion, maybe just including alternative names for things is enough. Masjawad99 (talk) 18:02, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
OK. All pages with "kelakar" in title were deleted. Concerning the "numbers" pages: is the small amount of text in those pages the number written out properly in the language? If so, perhaps the pages should be moved to a Wiktionary test rather than deleted. If they are complete garbage, then I will delete. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:56, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

User:StevenJ81 I think you can just delete those articles. The orthography used there is not really representative even though the words are indeed in the language. I think I can start the Wiktionary later on. Masjawad99 (talk) 02:15, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Numbers pages deleted. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:49, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Main Page[edit]

@Masjawad99 I just redesign a simpler main page for this wiki, here. I take several messages from the current main page into the page I designed. If you want it to be applied into this muiwiki, please let me now. Also, any suggestion about the coloring is welcome. Wirjadisastra (talk) 04:03, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Aesan Gede Songket Palembang.jpg
@Wirjadisastra Cool! Yes you can apply it to the main page. Thanks btw. About the coloring, traditional Palembang color is red and gold, as can be seen in Palembang songket. The page you've designed is mostly red already. Maybe change the color behind the welcome message to light gold? Masjawad99 (talk) 00:41, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
On second thought, I think your version doesn't need any change. Should I just copy-paste the source code? Masjawad99 (talk) 00:41, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
@Masjawad99 Done! I needed to make several templates for muiwiki before it could be copied and pasted. Wirjadisastra (talk) 03:19, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Now I need your help to translate "Tentang Wikipédia" and the Indonesian text below it. You may paraphrase them so that they are easier for Palembang people to understand. Otherwise, you can use the text from the old main page. Wirjadisastra (talk) 03:22, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Okay I will. Btw, I tried to add babel for mui in my user page but apparently it hasn't been translated (it appears as if I am an English speaker). Where can I translate it? (I have actually started to translate for mui in Translatewiki as well) Masjawad99 (talk) 03:32, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
@Masjawad99 I just checked them on Translatewiki. Looks like the admins have not execute your translations yet. I'll let them know. Wirjadisastra (talk) 03:50, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
Please understand the following rules with respect to what's on translatewiki:
  • Interface does not get imported into WMF projects until 13% of MediaWiki core messages are translated. Focus on the "MediaWiki (most important messages)" first, as they are part of the core messages group.
  • Once interface does get imported, updates often take 2–4 days to make it over from there to here. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:18, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
@StevenJ81 Ah, I see. Thank you for the info. Wirjadisastra (talk) 15:14, 2 November 2018 (UTC)