Talk:Wp/krl/Karjalaizet

I'm sorry this text is in english, I thought to leave it on the english wikipedia but this maybe a better place: Opinions, references (I have some of those), corrections appreciated, possible translation to karelian ? Some of the text is not encyclopedic (the ending chapters at least), and not particularly karelian related, but from here it looks like about this... photos File:Paanajarvi1.jpg, the oldest village in Viena File:Slashing-and-burning.jpg, from north Karelia province

History of Karelians

(Finno-Ugric people, tribe?, indigenous?, indian nation?, what?) (personal essay as one eight to one third Karelian (depending how to interpret some matters in the text...)) (unreferenced yet)

Karelians are a Baltic-Finnic tribe who currently live dispersed in many countries, but mostly in Karelian part of Russia... Traditionally they were connected to Izhorians, Vepsians and Savonians, the geographically closest tribes of the same. Tavastians (Jäms in the Novgorod chronicle), Coastal Finns (migrants from south?, Estes (linguistic similarity)) and Bothnians were more distant linguistically and diversed culturally from more eastern finnic tribes already during the Nordic bronze age as evidenced in the difference in the archeological finds during the period. (whether the battle-axe culture was germanic, baltic, or west-finnic culture cannot be known, (even continental celts have been suggested), but east finnic karelians they weren't). Genetic differences between eastern finns and western finns have been demonstrated and likely they date to this period...

Domestic animals were in use in Karelia (bones of sheep, goat (what was the ref?)) and slash and burn agriculture was practised during the Roman Iron Age (pollen analysis, at least rye(ref)), possibly earlier, but longer-living sedentary settlements were few. Possibly turf-buildings with some additional wooden floor and cover were built and abandoned as they became uninhabitable (takes about 10-15 years...) (fireplace was on bare ground during this time, most likely) leaving almost no mark in the country... during winters domestic animals had to be kept in relative warmth in the same dwelling due wolwes and wolwerines... possibly Tacitus was referring this method of living unbelievably filthy and poor. No doubt the median age was low compared to a Roman noble.

Part of southern finnic tribes (Mescherans, probably) have been in contact with the huns... (the northernmost hunnic finds are quite near Karelian grounds.) possible relations to them are unknown.

remnants of wooden structures have been found in various places (refs), these are timed to the 600s (earlier finds?). these are definitely permanent settlements. (f.e. Estonian Kunda culture is timed much earlier) The sparse remnants of these mostly wooden settlements are nearly impossible to find in the absence of literal evidence of their locations... And later the wars fought in the area have forced people to abandon perfectly good buildings to rot.

Common ritual places were instead used for longer periods of time. Samis and in areas of northern parts of finnic tribes some of the places are still used, some humorously as good-luck-charms, some more seriously as places for warding prayers and other such minor rituals. Use of dogs in hunting has been indicated from the rock paintings.

Sami peoples were known of, but the relation to them may have been hostile during prehistorical times as their language was not understood by the hunters or the tax-collectors... As the settlements crept northwards some intermingling has undoubtly happened between these peoples as the winters are so harsh in the area... this may have been a part of the so called oppression of the finns towards Sami (common name in Finland for boys nowadays, by the way), and language shifts to finnish varieties in the southernmost Samic populations have been inevitable... one theory states the Savonians are a mix of Samis, Karelians and other finnic tribes! This is clearly not correct since there's been settlements on the northwestern side of Saimaa (the Savonian (fishing people) tribal home) as long as anywhere else in Finland.(ref to a map) The karelian tribal home is between Ladoga and Ääninen (Oniegu taisi olla?), about in in the area Prääsä-Suojärvi-Petroskoi (possibly more southern, as the russian expansion...) as the karelian settlements tried to move westwards they eventually encountered Tavastians with the obvious results of strife between the finnic tribes as told in the Novgorod chronicles (hard to believe that was the first time). The divide at this time may have been the Kymi river. Later this was changed during the Swedish reign of Karelian Isthmus and Ingria.

It is unknown if some high-class karelians or finns took part in the varyag travels along Russian rivers.

The first evidence of Baltic-Finnic writing is in the form of bark, the language is probably an ancient form of izhorian or south karelian (Livvi) dialect. (Votian uses different the words (check that)). It may be a warding spell against wrath of god (manifested as thunderstorm) or a good luck charm for fishing (own interpretation). (In the finnish paganism the witch at many times gave a spell to go with the client as they left the healing or session (trad.), maybe a foolish custom but the recipies of the doctors have been interpreted to continue this tradition on most areas after Christianization, the difference here naturally being that the doctor's orders usually work as they are intended.)

The Christianization in Karelia began a little later than in the western Finland, the first reports of Orthodox missionaries date to 1200s (in the western finland 1100s or even 1000s) gradually moving northwards and reaching the eastern Sami population only in late 1700s (reports of chapels built in Kola), folk religion continued to be practised alongside, no systematic eradication of pagans is reported here unlike in Häme (Nuijasota) or in the Russia (christianization of principality of Moscow). At places some people were still called 'noita' (witch-doctor maybe the closest translation), in the beginning of the 1800s, though their value to the community had been diminshed greatly with the introduction of a more organised religion, (self-centered and secretive as they were (own interpretation)).

Position of the spekers of Finnish karelian dialect is complicated as many of them are generally descendants of the immigrants during swedish rule. Some intermarrying has happened as evidenced in both orthodox and lutheran records (the catholic records were, sadly, mostly burned in the great fire of Turku) later some parishes lost their marital, death and birth records during wars and soviet union, at one point in history also a sect or pirates called victual brothers (sort of heretic christians) destroyed these records, some vanished during the reformation in finland, not to talk anything about the accidental fires in the wooden churches or priest's houses that have happened as recorded in respective parish histories. Best finnish records are generally from western finland where stone churches were commonest in the early christian times in finland. if some of these medieval records of finns and karelians survive somewhere they're not publicly known.

Tracking Karelian family lineages is nearly impossible due the differences in recording systems between the churches, alphabets, and family names. In these records, some of the families living in Karelia, may be found by four different surnames as during the wars between imperial russia and kingdom of sweden the tax collectors and clergymen of both countries made their demographic lists.

The language of these immigrants didn't include the typical karelian voiced consonants. Though there are lexical similarities between Karelian dialects of finnish and karelian language, (most notably the personal pronouns 'mie','sie' etc.(differences in the third person are local (if i remember correctly)...), palatalization does not usually occur in the dialect. Some old karelian roots may have been preserved in the Karelian dialect of finnish.

Generally, the immigrants naturally continued to use western words for most items within their lives, though there were already words for these in the karelian language. Many of these karelian words were incorrectly marked as archaic finnish words (and not karelian language) during the fennoman movement in the 1800s... which in part has obfuscated the situation of peoples with origins on the karelian isthmus...

As well as Karelians, no doubt there are people with some Izhorian roots in Finland as there are many Ingrians (probably much mixed with Izhorians) and Isthmusians (the (IMHO not so good) name some of the finnish evacuees have decided to call themselves). They should decide whether they want to be called Finns or partly Karelians or partly Finns, maybe Karelians (after learning some of the proper Karelian language...(this is not an easy thing for a finn to write)).

80.186.226.81 12:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Language of article?

Is this article really tiverikarjala language? As a Finn I find this very easy to understand, even easier than livvi. Thule (talk) 11:26, 25 January 2015 (UTC)