Talk:Wp/cop/ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ ⲅⲁⲗⲓ

Ⲣⲉⲛϥ

Ⲉⲑⲃⲉ ⲟⲩ ⲧⲉⲛⲥϧⲉ ⲣⲉⲛϥ ϫⲉ Ϩⲁⲗⲓ? Ϯⲙⲉⲩⲓ ϫⲉ ⲥⲉⲥϧⲉ ⲡⲓⲅⲁⲓⲛ ⲛⲁⲣⲁⲃⲟⲥ ϫⲉ ⲅⲁⲙⲙⲁ ϧⲉⲛϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ, ⲓⲁⲛⲓ Ⲅⲁⲗⲓ. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

It should actually be Ϧⲁⲗⲓ (i don't remember why it's ϩⲁⲗⲓ, probably just a mistake), see Ϧⲁⲗⲓⲃ for غالب. Ghayn usually becomes ⲅ or ⲕ at the end of the words – ⲁⲥⲡⲁⲅ or ⲁⲥⲡⲁⲕ for اصبغ or ⲧⲁⲗⲙⲁⲣⲁⲅⲉ for المراغة‎. Both are actually possible but i feel that voiced velar fricative-voiceless velar fricative transition is more likely at the beginning of the word. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:27, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Is his name recorded somewhere in Coptic (in Butrusiya maybe)? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:33, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Ghayn shows up in a number of ways in Coptic, as ⲅ, ⲕ, ϧ, and even ϭ (although marked as "phonologically insecure by Richter ("Arabic words in Coptic texts"). ϧ is not mentioned by Richter, but he focusses on Coptic texts when it was still a widespread spoken language, and the one incident of ϧ I know is later. The most common equivalent of ghayn is gamma, but all examples of Arabic ghayn Richter gives involve word-medial ghayn. But I don't think word-medial vs word-initial is the problem here, it is rather a question whether it is part of a consonant cluster or immediately followed by a vowel. In any case, it doesn't seem like a good idea to transcribe ghayn differently depending on its position in a word; such a distinction seems petty.

"voiced velar fricative-voiceless velar fricative transition is more likely" That is definitely true, but it requires the assumption that Coptic gamma was never pronounced like a fricative, and it also requires the opposite assumption that Copts didn't just pronounce Arabic ghayn like /g/. Given that ghayn also shows up as ⲕ and (Sahidic) ϭ, it actually seems possible that ghayn was just approximated with /g/ or /k/ by the Copts. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 17:09, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I doubt gamma was ever fricative expect for the late Arabised Coptic. غالب - Ϧⲁⲗⲓⲃ example is actually from the IX century. Could you give some examples with ⲕ and ϭ by the way (ⲁⲗϭⲁⲃⲓⲣⲓ in Richter?)? I don't think the distinction is petty but i guess ⲅ is okay given that غ is substituted with the /g/ sound in almost every language. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 21:36, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

"I doubt gamma was ever fricative expect for the late Arabised Coptic." Yes I agree. Richter gives the examples ⲁⲗⲙⲁⲕⲥⲟⲩⲗ, ⲁⲗϭⲁⲃⲓⲣⲓ, ⲁⲗϭⲉⲗⲗⲉ, and for Gamma: ⲁⲛϯⲙⲁⲅ ⲁⲗⲙⲟⲩⲗⲅⲁⲙ ⲁⲗⲙⲁⲅⲣⲁ. Hmm so what do we agree on here? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

There's actually also ⲕⲟⲩⲗⲉⲙ for غالم so I think ⲅ for غ is ok even if followed by a vowel. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 12:12, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Then Let's take ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ ⲅⲁⲗⲓ. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 21:00, 5 August 2020 (UTC)