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Talk:Wp/cop/Ⲛⲉⲛⲉ̀ⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ̀ ⲉⲧϩⲟⲧⲡ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉϯⲁ̀ⲙⲉⲣⲓⲕⲏ

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Latest comment: 2 years ago by Mahmudmasri in topic The word's origin

Spelling Discussion[edit source]

Please see: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wp/cop#Foreign_Names_in_Coptic_.28Again.29

(12/Aug/2017 User:بطرس مرقس)

The name[edit source]

What name should we use? I'm pretty sure ⲣⲉⲑⲱⲟⲩ is a bad choice give the discussion it Talk:Wp/cop/ⲣⲉⲑⲟ. My suggestions are:

  • ⲛⲓⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ ⲉⲧⲧⲟⲙⲓ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ϯⲁⲙⲉⲣⲓⲕⲏ (the closest to the Greek name)
  • ⲛⲓⲉⲡⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ ⲉⲧⲧⲟⲙⲓ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ϯⲁⲙⲉⲣⲓⲕⲏ (the closest to the Arabic name)
  • ⲛⲓⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲉⲧⲧⲟⲙⲓ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ϯⲁⲙⲉⲣⲓⲕⲏ (a kinda compromise I think as ⲭⲱⲣⲁ is both "province, region" and "nation, country" which fits really well).

I also think we could use a definite article before ⲁⲙⲉⲣⲓⲕⲏ to match it with ⲁⲥⲓⲁ and ⲁⲫⲣⲓⲕⲏ. What do you think? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:44, 4 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

We could use ⲛⲓⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲉⲧⲧⲟⲙⲓ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ⲁⲙⲉⲣⲓⲕⲏ. This would in turn also imply that we can replace ⲭⲱⲣⲁ by ⲑⲟ in all those articles where we need to express "country, land". بطرس مرقس (talk) 15:56, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
Hmmm why? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 12:13, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
If we don't like ⲣⲉⲑⲟ, it would still be good to have a term which separates the meanings دولة and ولاية . And I can understand why when we use ⲭⲱⲣⲁ for this here, ⲑⲟ or another term can be used for "country". ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
ⲉⲡⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ sounds like a good idea to reflect ولاية. But it would be great to have some genuine Coptic words too. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
I'm pretty sure ⲉⲡⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ is very much Coptic. "it would still be good to have a term which separates the meanings دولة and ولاية" I don't think we should equate the lexemes of one language to the lexemes of another. There's plenty of terms in Coptic with meanings of "country, state" or "province" – ⲕⲁϩⲓ, ⲭⲱⲣⲁ, ⲑⲱϣ, ⲉⲡⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ, ⲛⲟⲙⲟⲥ and I think we should be guided by their meaning. Also living languages tend to have more than one meaning for their lexemes as they develop (while the artificial one wouldn't have this feature). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 08:06, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
You have an odd preference to talk about names and terminology, instead of actually learning the language. Some articles you've written are pseudo-Coptic, and most of the time you invest in them are changing one toponym by another. بطرس مرقس (talk) 14:59, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
Firstly, let me decide what's odd and what's not. Secondly, you're likely referring to Cairo article which I wrote when I was actually learning the language and didn't know much about it (that's why I felt into "inventing" and "reconstructing" words here as well). Thirdly, you're absolutely right, I'm studying toponyms so I do my best to contribute my knowledge here. Funny enough, most of your contributions are Talk pages. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 20:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
The issue in the Cairo article are not the neologisms you introduced, but the grossly agrammatical language, so don't try to insinuate that the problem there would be neologisms. Maybe you spend more time learning the grammar, and focus less on toponyms. بطرس مرقس (talk) 01:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)Reply
I've never said the problem was about "neologisms", please learn to read or spend some time reading my previous answer more carefully. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 08:42, 9 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

The abbreviation[edit source]

Which abbreviation should we use for USA? Given that we've decided that "state" is ⲉⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ the name would be ⲛⲉⲛⲉⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ ⲉⲧⲧⲟⲙⲓ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ (ϯ)ⲁⲙⲉⲣⲓⲕⲏ should it be ⲛ.ⲉ.ⲁ.? Also what should be the proper orthography of Washington? Given the American pronunciation /ˈwɔʃɪŋtən/ I guess I'd suggest ⲟⲩⲱϣⲓⲅⲅⲧⲟⲛ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 19:23, 12 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

ⲟⲩⲱϣⲓⲅⲅⲧⲟⲛ? The local pronunciation shouldn't always matter because there are some established pronunciations in the Middle East and in other places. ⲟⲩⲁϣⲓⲛⲧⲟⲛ and ⲟⲩⲱϣⲓⲛⲧⲟⲛ make more sense. The abbreviation you suggested could be used, but abbreviations are not that common in Middle Eastern languages. That's more a European thing. And why not ⲛⲓⲉⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ ⲉⲧⲧⲟⲙⲓ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ (ϯ)ⲁⲙⲉⲣⲓⲕⲏ? Can we use ⲛⲓ instead of ⲛⲉⲛ? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 13:02, 13 January 2021 (UTC)Reply
ⲛⲉⲛ- is used before a compound noun i.e. ⲛⲉⲛϣⲏⲣⲓ ⲙ̀ⲡⲓⲥⲣⲁⲏⲗ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 17:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply
Yeah we can use an abbreviation but I mean... it is really more a Western peculiarity. The "abbreviation" people commonly use is ⲁⲙⲉⲣⲓⲕⲏ. But maybe it's just an Arabic issue so why can use ⲛ.ⲉ.ⲁ. if you guys want. Why not. As regards the local pronunciations, I agree with ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ - this must be decided on a case by case basis. In the case of common names, there is an established standard. That's why we also have Wp/cop/ⲣⲓⲟ ⲧⲉ ϣⲁⲛⲏⲣⲟ and not ϧⲓⲟⲩ ϭⲓ ϣⲁⲛⲏⲣⲟⲩ. Which non-Latin alphabetic language transcribes the latter, and not the former? It would be totally weird. In the case of Washington, the gap is not too big, however, and whatever you want is OK. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

The word's origin[edit source]

Accordingly, the word's origin is the feminine form of Americus, not originating from an earlier Greek word. The Greek word is from Modern Greek, as a Hellenization for the Latin word.

Therefore, the Latin word should be adopted, not automatically borrowing a second-hand borrowing. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 14:32, 4 February 2022 (UTC)Reply