Talk:Wp/cop/ⲉⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ

I know it will cause a lot of controversy here but why don't we just use ⲡⲓⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ for "state"? I mean for both "state" as a sovereign polity and as a political division (because obviously the second one comes from the first one). ⲣⲉⲑⲟ not only can't be used for "sovereign polity" (putting aside it's doubtful etymology) but also doesn't represent a political division called "state" as "state" i.e. sovereign polity. I mean ⲣⲉⲑⲟ implicates a part of something, I guess Egyptian markaz can be called ⲣⲉⲑⲟ but not the American or German state given the amount of the authority over it's territory and the history behind it. The United States become the United Parts which is a completely different thing. Please share your thoughts. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 23:06, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm open to new ideas. But I don't think that "state" with the two meanings you described needs to have the same word in Coptic. That's the case in English, but also Arabic uses دولة for the sovereign state and ولاية for the subdivision. And the sovereign state could also be ϫⲟⲙ, given that we use ⲣⲉϥϭⲓⲙⲱⲓⲧ `ⲛϫⲟⲙ for president and ⲣⲉⲙⲛϫⲟⲙ for politician. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 12:01, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm pretty convinced the two meanings are the same thing and the Arabic case is an exception. ولاية is also a "province" in general so I think this meaning stems from there. I've suggested ⲡⲓⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ as it's the equivalent to Greek κράτος but we could take ⲉⲡⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ if you want to equate it with Arabic ولاية. Btw Abdelnoor gives ⲣⲉⲙⲛϫⲟⲙ for "vizier" and Girgis gives ϩⲩⲅⲟⲩⲙⲉⲛⲟⲥ for "president". If you ask me, for "politician" I'd coin the international term maybe using the existing ⲫⲁϯⲃⲁⲕⲓ (means "citizen" – πολῑ́της but ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲃⲁⲕⲓ is more common) or the Arabic one with a bit clumsy ⲫⲁϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲃⲁⲕⲓ (where ϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲃⲁⲕⲓ = πολιτευμα, "policy"). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:37, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I looked at some translations, and it seems that the two meanings are kept is fairly standard. Turkic languages, from Turkish to Uzbek, Chinese, and some Eastern European languages do the same. I also think that ⲣⲉⲙⲛϫⲟⲙ for politician and ⲣⲉϥϭⲓⲙⲱⲓⲧ `ⲛϫⲟⲙ for president is fine. I don't think that their terms are better. I can be convinced for another term for ⲣⲉⲑⲟ, but ⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ isn't great either. ⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ already has a lot of meanings, charging it up with another could get confusing. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

So what's the conclusion here? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 11:14, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Are you sure? Turkic languages mostly just take Arabic terms, but even here it's – Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Bashkir, Tartar - shtat (from Russian штат from English "state"), in Chinese 邦 is used which means "nation, country", Eastern Slavic – Polish "Stan" - nation, state, Czech "stat" - nation, state, Russian "штат" - state, Serbo-Croatian - "država" – country, state and so on. There's mostly no distinction between the two. ⲡⲓⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ is just my proposal based on the reasons i've mentioned before. I'm not saying ⲣⲉⲙⲛϫⲟⲙ or ⲣⲉϥϭⲓⲙⲱⲓⲧ ⲛ̀ϫⲟⲙ are wrong or bad, i just think we should respect the previous efforts in the field. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 01:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

So, as far as I see it, the problem with ⲣⲉⲑⲟ is that it means "land part" and this is not a perfect match for "wilayat"? Because of the top-down approach instead of the bottom-up which lies beneath the German and American states? I can follow that argument, but is it really a big deal? In the end, the German and American states are not more than simple parts of Germany and America. Except for Texas (I heard), none of the states is legally allowed to break off the US, neither are Bavaria or Saxony and so on from Germany. So, in a way, they are just "land parts" despite their own history. Also, ⲁⲙⲁϩⲓ means "prevail, rule; grasp" and doesn't seem to be an obvious match either. And for vizier and politician I like what has been used here: ⲗⲁⲥⲁϧ for minister/vizier and ⲣⲉⲙⲛϫⲟⲙ for politician. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I think there is no conclusion yet. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:25, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I've given a counterargument above but there was no response that's why I had to ask. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:23, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Any suggestions which haven't been made yet? I really think we should create more new words instead of just taking a certain word and fill it up with yet another meaning; in this sense, I like ⲣⲉⲑⲟ. But maybe there is another compound we come up with? بطرس مرقس (talk)

But why? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:23, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

What do you think about ⲇⲏⲙⲟⲥⲓⲟⲛ/ⲇⲏⲙⲟⲥⲓⲱⲛ for "state"? Coptic Dictionary gives the following meanings - 1) public, state, government 2) public, i.e. political, affair 3) public/state property 4) tax(es) (general, or more specifically: land-tax). I think it fits quite well for a "state" in sense of a public government which has an essential function of collecting and allocation of taxes. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 01:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

ⲇⲏⲙⲟⲥⲓⲟⲛ is extremely commonly used for 'tax'. It is so common that it has been frequently copticized as ⲧⲉⲙⲱⲥⲓ, ϯⲙⲟⲥⲓⲟⲛ etc and I think we should use it for 'tax'. What about ⲡⲟⲗⲓⲧⲉⲓⲁ? (Attested as ⲡⲟⲗⲓⲧⲓⲁ ⲡⲟⲗⲉⲧⲓⲁ) ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 19:47, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I thought ⲡⲟⲗⲓⲧⲉⲓⲁ also has a fixed meaning "way of life"? It is sometimes replaced by ϫⲓⲛⲱⲛϧ in Bohairic literature (see Egyptian Ethnic Identity Development in Anti-Chalcedonian Coptic Literature, a dissertation by Vince L. Bantu, p.153) --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:44, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Btw, in Scala Gradus ⲧ(ⲉⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ) is used in sense of "l'Etat" and I think it may be a good candidate for "state". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 16:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, it can be used for "way of life" (the state of someone, with the double meaning of state like in English). We can use ⲉⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ for state if you want. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:00, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I still think real Coptic terms would be better, but as this discussion goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and I myself don't have a better term , ⲉⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ for state is good. But how do we call the subdivision? Also ⲉⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ or ⲡⲟⲗⲓⲧⲉⲓⲁ? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

ⲉⲝⲟⲩⲥⲓⲁ for دولة and ⲡⲟⲗⲓⲧⲉⲓⲁ for ولاية sound good to me. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

But ولاية has a quite established equation with ϯⲉⲡⲁⲣⲭⲓⲁ (thus ولي = ⲉⲡⲁⲣⲭⲟⲥ). I think ⲡⲟⲗⲓⲧⲉⲓⲁ would be a great translation of "(political) regime" – نظام. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 11:33, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh yes that's true. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)