Talk:Wp/cop/ⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛ̀ⲉⲑⲱϣ

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ⲉⲑⲱϣ[edit source]

There exist more than one Nubian language. Nubian is a family of closely related languages (or dialects as Nubians like to call them). The two main ones are: the Nobiin, and the Andaandi (or Dongolawi). It is clear that this article is talking about the first. My concern is that we are using the word ⲉⲑⲱϣ for the Nobiin. Should not we use it to mean the Nubian languages group, and use something like ϯⲁⲥⲡⲓ `ⲛⲛⲟⲃⲓⲛ/`ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲛⲟⲩⲃⲓⲁ (or ϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ `ⲛⲉⲑⲱϣ `ⲛⲧⲉ ⲛⲟⲃⲓ̈ⲛ) for the Nobiin language and ϯⲁⲥⲡⲓ `ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲧⲟⲛⲕⲟⲗⲁ for Andaandi/Dongolawi? --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 21:33, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also, note that the word ⲉⲑⲱϣ (Cush) can (beside Nubian) refer to Ethiopians/Somalis who used to speak Afroasiatic languages from the Cushitic branch. The Beja people living in the Egyptian Halayeb and Shalateen traingle also speak a Cushitic language (i.e., Beja language). Should not we reserve the word ⲉⲑⲱϣ to refer to Cushitic languages instead of Nubian languages that belong to the Nilo-Saharan language family. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 21:33, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I thought about that issue too. But ⲉⲑⲱϣ and Kush always refered, when used for ethnic groups, to Nubians (of the Nilo-Saharan family, as far as we can tell). Also, as Nobiin is considered the main (and most direct) successor of ancient Nubian, I don't think it is a problem to use ⲁⲥⲡⲓ `ⲛⲉⲑⲱϣ for Nobiin. The name Cushitic was just invented in the 19th century to refer to a group of languages whose predecessors were not refered to as Nubians. (There may be references, but always in the way of 'Cushitic peoples are Nubians because the live in Nubia' - not ethnic Nubians.) Cushites like the Blemmyes (where more and more researchers think the modern descendants are the Beja) are called ⲃⲁⲗϩⲙⲱⲟⲩ in Coptic, not so much ⲉⲑⲱϣ.

So, using ⲉⲑⲱϣ for 'Cushitic' only because modern researchers used Cush to refer to a linguistic family which doesnt have deep links with the very region and language which ⲉⲑⲱϣ refered to, is a pity.

If we need another name for 'Nubia', there are some other words. We could use the hieroglyphic nḥs 'Nubian' which is in Coptic, given the loanword in Hebrew, very probably ⲛϩⲟⲥ. ⲑⲉⲛϩⲟⲥ (t3 n nḥs) is 'Nubia'. ⲛϩⲱⲥⲓ 'female Nubian' (< nḥs.t).

But even then, ⲉⲑⲱϣ is only used for Ethiopia - sometimes. In most cases, modern Ethiopia is ⲁⲓⲑⲓⲟⲡⲓⲁ. The problem is, that Ethiopia meant actually Nubians, not Ethiopians which lived far too south to be actually meant with ⲉⲑⲱϣ. In any case, we should use an Egyptian name for the main Nubian language, Nobiin.

I know, however, that we need a name for Cushitic. For instance, we could use ⲣⲉⲙⲛϭⲱϣ. This would be the regular outcome of k3š in Bohairic: ϭⲱϣ. (The name ⲉϭⲱϣ / ⲉⲑⲱϣ is irregular, especially in Bohairic). We should use ⲣⲉⲙⲛϭⲁⲧ for Tchadic and ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲟⲙⲟ for Omotic, for instance.

--ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ 26 September 2017

For Chushitic, we could use ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲟⲩⲥ. ⲭⲟⲩⲥ ultimately comes from the same root as ⲉⲑⲱϣ, but the former is used in the Bible and refers to (Black?) African south of Egypt. ⲉⲑⲱϣ should be used for Nubian. --ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ 10 October 2017

We can use the word Punt (from land of Punt) to refer to Cushitic languages. However, I do not know the Coptic word for Punt. We can also, just stick to ⲉⲑⲱϣ for both. For Nobian, it's just ⲉⲑⲱϣ, while for Cushitic family we use something like ⲏⲓ `ⲛⲉⲑⲱϣ (or any similar construction). The point is, even though, I agree with what ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ wrote above. I am still hesitant because the term Cushitic family is a scientific one (yes, it's misleading) but may be we should stick with it as all other wikis are doing. --ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ (talk) 00:02, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That is why I proposed ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲟⲩⲥ for the scientific Cushitic, so that we can use ⲉⲑⲱϣ for Nubian. We shouldnt use ⲉⲑⲱϣ for both Nubian and Cushitic, they don't even belong to the same family. --ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ 10 October 2017

Unfortunately, the Coptic name for Punt is unknown (because no sources with it written down have been found and, because we don't know how it was pronounced in Hieroglyphic Egyptian - which would be enough to reconstruct the Coptic form). I didn't know neither the word ⲭⲟⲩⲥ nor that Kush was mentioned in the Bible. This would be a good way to overcome the labelling problem in Coptic. We could use ⲉⲑⲱϣ in the traditional sense, and the less ordinary ⲭⲟⲩⲥ for the less ordinary word 'Cushitic'. There isnt any confusion, as ⲉⲑⲱϣ and ⲭⲟⲩⲥ are never used interchangeably . --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ 10 October 2017

ⲓⲁⲣⲟⲛⲉⲙⲁⲥⲥⲁϩⲣⲁ[edit source]

Another topic which we need to adress are the various x-o-y-compounds like Nilo-Saharan, Indo-European, Afro-Asiatic. The -o- is used in, it seems, all Western languages which base their scientific vocabulary on Greek (and Latin). In Arabic, you just put the two words together without any link. Now, in Coptic, we could use the 'Western' method (which I am not happy with). Or we could link them with ⲛⲉⲙ. Or leave ⲛⲉⲙ out?

The word for 'Nilo-Saharan' could be set up as follows: Nile is ⲓⲁⲣⲟ. Sahara could be ⲁⲥⲥⲁϩⲣⲁ, if we take it from Arabic. I don't wanna use the normal word for 'desert' in Coptic. However, there is an Hieroglyphic Egyptian dšrt (literally 'the red') meaning 'desert' - the opposite of kmt ('the black') for 'Egypt'. It is not used in Coptic anymore. It seems like in Demotic, it is not used for 'desert' anymore. Demotic tšrt is used for the 'red crown' (of Lower Egypt). In Old Egyptian, the pronunciation was *daširat > *dašrat > *taršə > Coptic ⲑⲟⲣϣⲓ. We could use ⲑⲟⲣϣⲓ for both 'Sahara' and 'red crown'.

  • So, we could use for 'Nilo-Saharan' ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲓⲁⲣⲟⲑⲟⲣϣⲓ or ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲓⲁⲣⲟⲛⲉⲙⲑⲟⲣϣⲓ
  • For 'Indo-European' ⲣⲉⲙⲛϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ(ⲛⲉⲙ)ⲉⲩⲣⲱⲡⲏ,
  • and for 'Afro-Asiatic' ⲣⲉⲙⲛⲁⲫⲣⲓⲕⲏ(ⲛⲉⲙ)ⲁⲥⲓⲁ.

Would you leave ⲛⲉⲙ out or use it? I actually would leave it away but the when the first word ends in a vowel and the next starts in a vowel, it sounds a bit weird maybe --ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ 10 October 2017