Talk:Wp/cop/ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ

First of all why do we use ϭⲓⲛ and not something like ⲥⲓⲛⲁ/ⲥⲓⲛⲁⲓ? And also did you know that Scala Magna has a a quite peculiar name for China – ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ. The derivation from ⲙⲏⲇⲟⲥ "Medes" was suggested by ⲡⲓⲥⲁϦⲟ (Gen 10:2 has an interesting form of it - ⲁⲙⲁⲇⲁ). It could happen via Manichean texts or just because the passage in Genesis lists the sons of Japheth that were identified with different countries. I also think that Copts didn't want to use ⲥⲓⲛⲁ/ⲥⲓⲛⲁⲓ or something similar because it reminds of ⲥⲓⲛⲁ-Sinai. It's just theories though. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 22:45, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting! Sometimes I wonder why the authors may have used one or the other word. What where their sources? Did they take a geographical name they knew and use it for their purposes (see in the discussion about the name of France, or Japan). Was anybody besides them using these names in the way they wrote it down in their dictionaries? (Admittedly, the circle of Copts talking about China in the Middle Ages was probably small, but still). I haven't looked at the Scala Magna for a long time. Is it available online? I had access to an online copy I think but I can't remember anymore.

About ϭⲓⲛ: I think the idea behind is similar to the one about France (although in the French case, I don't know what conclusion we draw, which is why I haven't said anything); namely, supposing that the Copts would have gotten their name in the Middle Ages by the same ways the Arabs got theirs, supposing that Persian چين yielded both Arabic الصين and Coptic ϭⲓⲛ? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:28, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Scala Magna is available online: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1097707/f216.image

What is their source and did other Copts use these words? Unfortunately we'll not be able to tell. On ϭⲓⲛ – do you think that it's safer to say that it would be taken directly from Persian instead of Arabic/Coptic ⲥⲓⲛⲁ/ⲥⲓⲛⲁⲓ? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 09:45, 18 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ϯϣⲉⲡϩⲙⲟⲧ!

If we assume it came from Arabic, ⲁⲥⲥⲓⲛ looks more likely. What is better I don't know, seems like the perennial struggle between the pro-Greek (ⲕⲓⲛⲁ), pro-Arabic (ⲁⲥⲥⲓⲛ) and puristic Coptic camp (in this case ϭⲓⲛ, because we would assume that the Egyptians learnt about the country - like the Arabs did/would have done - by their eastern Persian neighbors if the Arab conquest wouldn't have happened), not to mention the many scalae. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 05:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I just saw ⲕⲓⲛⲁ is modern Greek, while ⲥⲓⲛⲁⲓ is Ancient Greek. Or ⲥⲓⲛⲁ. Which is indeed confusing and reminds me more of Sinai. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 05:15, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's too bold to assume what would've happened (they could easily take the word from Greek (most likely) or Syriac not Persian). I'd say that ⲥⲓⲛⲁⲓ (to differentiate it from ⲥⲓⲛⲁ) is the safest bet if we don't want to use ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 20:48, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we can use ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ if it's clear the author didn't just invent some trash. ⲥⲓⲛ would be in line with Semitic languages (Syriac for instance). ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 21:57, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The only possibility of him inventing some trash is that he didn't like the Greek or Arabic word and decided to invent a new "Egyptian" one (but i thought that's ok for you). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 10:18, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm for reintroducing words from older stages of Egyptian with adapted sound changes, not inventing words out of the blue - the latter is common among your revered scala writers. ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ certainly doesn't make a genuine Egyptian impression, but i'd be fine with it as long as we make sure it was not only used by that author and if the etymology is kinda certain, or there are signs the community is using it. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 17:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Which words were invented by Scala writers out of the blue? Please name a few. ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ is only used in Scala Magna, it's etymology is uncertain (see the theories above). Which community you're talking about? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You know it better than I do because you rely more on the Scalas. ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ, ⲓⲏⲗⲓⲟⲡⲟⲛ, ⲟⲩⲫⲉⲣⲉⲛⲧⲏⲥ, none of which match pre-Coptic, Greek, Arabic or any other language. With community I mean the Coptic enthusiasts. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 18:24, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So what's our decision? Personally i am in favour of ⲥⲓⲛⲁⲓ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 20:04, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And what do we call Sinai in that case? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ⲥⲓⲛⲁ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 16:27, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Should we move it? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No to Greek. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 13:34, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok but what do you suggest? You can't say no without suggesting anything. Is ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ a compromise? ϭⲓⲛ? (But the latter is not liked by ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ) ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:38, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Im a bit skeptical about ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ because it looks so much like a made-up scala name. But Ive seen it used in the Coptic community so I wont object it. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 13:42, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lol a made-up Wiki name ⲑⲉⲛϩⲟⲥ is much better than ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ right :) Just imagine the backwards engineering a Coptic speaker would have had to make to understand what ⲑⲉⲛϩⲟⲥ stands for. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:17, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fine. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:43, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Be on point Fat Wershy. Are you fine with ⲁⲙⲓⲧⲱⲛ or not? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 14:26, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Un Piss Usiri my friend i'm fine with it. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Haha believe it or not I had to laugh :) Awesome. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 14:34, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good, I change it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]