Talk:Wp/cop/ⲡⲉⲗϩⲱⲛ

Hello everyone. What word should we use for Sphinx?

I see few possibilities:

• Just take a Greek term as it's known worldwide and was probably in use by Copts
• Literally translate Arabic name Abū al Hūl
• Try to reconstruct Ancient Hor-em-akhet (Harmachis) or even go with proposed origin for Greek word šzp-ꜥnḫ
• Try to reconstruct Coptic form probably mentioned as Belheib (بلهيب) and Belhoubah (بلهوبة) by Al-Maqrizi, but then we have to reconstruct the prior form (my only suggestions for compounds are ⲃⲁⲗ and ϩⲏⲃⲓ/Ϧⲏⲃⲓ or ϩⲟⲩⲟ). On the other hand it may be just a Coptic corruption of Arabic Abū al Hūl, but it may also be opposite way as well.

Maybe somebody has any additional info? Please share it.

ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 07:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Hey, I will look into it the next week. So far, before we come up with a better term, I would use the Greek word. Harmachis is [[|Wp/cop/ϩⲁⲣⲙⲁϣⲓ|ϩⲁⲣⲙⲁϣⲓ]], but I am not sure if we should take it as the standard word for "sphinx". I mean, it was not a common expression for a, or "the", sphinx. But I will see what I can find, maybe there was even a Demotic word for "sphinx". ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 18:24, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

It is hard to come up with a Coptic word for "sphinx", and reminds my of the difficulty to reconstruct a word for "pyramid". It may be somewhat understable, as both, although iconic Egyptian, had been built thousands of years before Coptic (or Demotic) were spoken. On the other hand, the Egyptians must have had a name for the Sphinx at all times because of its visibility, and it seems that Harmachis and Abu-l Haul/Hol are kind of connected (strictly they are not). So, the Sphinx was seen as an image of Harmachis in the New Kingdom. Furthermore, the originally Semitic god Horon became popular in the area of Gizeh in the New Kingdom. Due to the perceived similarity between the names of Horus and Horon (both were even pronounced with an emphatic h, so the similarity is not only in the Latin-based transcription). There are indeed texts were the sphinx is called "The Horon" (p3 ḥwrwn3). I don't know why, but it seems that the last syllable (n3) was dropped, which left "p3 ḥwr(w)". Given the fact that Carsten Peust reconstructs it as "phe-Hél" (with e signifying an unknown vowel, but watch the l instead the r) and Arabic and supposedly Coptic names from al-Maqrizi, plus the likelihood that old au/u/o would give ⲏ, the sphinx would be ⲫⲏⲗ in Bohairic. However, this is only for the (likely) situation that the first vowel in the God's name was not an a (= ⲱ in this case). However, I don't exclude that au and o may have developed differently from old u in this case and am not sure if it would yield ⲏ. Keep in mind that the ⲏ in this case would not be pronounced as long i (like in genuine Egyptian words with etymological i and most Greek words), but as long, bright a (like other genuine Egyptian words with etymological u). ⲫ is from ⲡ + ϩ, as the fuller Bohairic article ⲡⲓ is rather used for "the" in non-proper nouns. Proper nouns with article usually have it contracted. Whether such a ⲫⲏⲗ (phaal) is really the origin of the Arabic "Abul Haul", I don't dare to say, but it could make sense that Arabic speakers turned it into that with their folk etymology.

If the name Horon (ḥau/o/ur?n-) was assimilated to Horus (ḥar-) early enough, than it could well be that the name of Horon acquired the vowel of Horus and would then develop like Horus into Coptic. If we still insist on the l instead the r (both Carsten Peust's version and Arabic suggest it), this would yield ⲫⲱⲗ. I shall mention that ϩⲱⲗ is the Fayyumic pronunciation of ϩⲱⲣ (Horus). There is no evidence, however, that the local Gizean (Memphitic) dialect was Fayyumic or had any closer ties to Fayyumic than to, let's say, Bohairic or Sahidic.

As the hieroglyphic name provided by Peust clearly shows the hieroglyph u/w, I think it may still be rather ⲫⲏⲗ than ⲫⲱⲗ. But let me see if I can get some final evidence on it. If I can find it out, I would suggest to go with this reconstructed name instead of the Greek "sphinx" or the Egyptian "harmashi" ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:54, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for this amazing research. I’m also in favour of reconstructed term so looking forward for your reply with a final evidence. --ⲡⲁⲣⲇⲁ (talk) 11:43, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I was not able to find more on that topic, but I will continue to look for something. For now, I think ⲫⲏⲗ is a good guess. Thank you for the nice article you wrote! ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! What do you think about using ϣⲁⲡⲱⲛϦ (šzp-ꜥnḫ) for "sphinx" in general (not just the Great Sphinx)? --ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 21:59, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

The Editio Princeps of Khitat al-Maqrizi of 1853 (1:31) reads بلهيت not بلهيب and even يلهوية. --176.14.183.127 08:37, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Could it be just a scribal mistake? Also ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ are you sure it should be ⲡϩⲏⲗ and not ⲡϩⲱⲗ? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 23:27, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the form. If we follow Peust and others, it comes from the name of the god Hauron, written hwr (h with dot) in Egyptian. But what should be the Bohairic form? ϩⲱⲣ, ϩⲁⲩⲣ, ϩⲱⲗ, ϩⲁⲩⲗ? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:22, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I feel like we should keep the lambdacism and in this case I think ϩⲱⲗ is the safest bet. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 16:41, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, I'm fine with it.ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:07, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Horus ?

Seems like Carsten Peust ("Die Toponyme vorarabischen Ursprungs im modernen Ägypten", page 46) thinks now that the Arabic name comes from Horus, which would render ⲫⲏⲗ incorrect: ϩⲁⲣⲙⲁϣⲓ seems the better alternative then. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:26, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Does he? I can only see that he suggests Hwr/Hwrwn as a source if it (most likely p3-Hwr). I'm not sure if this lambdacism happened before or after the conquest. ϩⲁⲣⲙⲁϣⲓ seems kinda out of line as it's not a Coptic but rather AE name. If we want a 100% safe guess ⲥⲫⲓⲛⲝ is much better then. Although i guess we could also go with ⲡϩⲱⲗ/ⲫⲱⲗ (I guess forms given by Maqrizi are just an attempt to recreate a possible Coptic predecessor of Abu-al-Hawl based on the available data). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 20:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

ϩⲁⲣⲙⲁϣⲓ is the phonologically expected outcome in Coptic, as shown by Greek Harmachis, so it would not be a problem if you talk about this part.

Oh but I see now what you (and he) mean. I thought he referred to Horus, but instead he refers to the god Hwr. Then I guess ϩⲏⲗ is right? Sorry, I was confused. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 00:48, 1 July 2020 (UTC)