Talk:Wp/cop/ⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲩⲡⲟⲗⲓⲥ
Add topicLatest comment: 3 years ago by Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ
Why do you prefer a presubject form of the past perfect? And what was wrong with ⲙⲟⲩϯ ⲉⲣⲟⲥ ⲉ ⲫⲣⲁⲛ construction? I thought is has this sense in Luke 1:59 ⲀⲤϢⲰⲠⲒ ⲆⲈ ϦⲈⲚⲠⲒⲈϨⲞⲞⲨ ⲘⲘⲀϨⲎ ⲀⲨⲒ ϪⲈ ⲚⲦⲞⲨⲤⲞⲨⲂⲈ ⲠⲒⲀⲖⲞⲨ ⲞⲨⲞϨ ⲚⲀⲨⲘⲞⲨϮ ⲈⲢⲞϤ ⲠⲈ ⲈⲪⲢⲀⲚ ⲘⲠⲈϤⲒⲰⲦ ⲌⲀⲬⲀⲢⲒⲀⲤ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:23, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- ⲙⲟⲩϯ ⲉⲣⲟⲥ ⲉ ⲫⲣⲁⲛ is fine, but ⲙⲟⲩϯ was used already and it's good to avoid repetitions. What do you mean with presubject form of the past perfect? What do you refer too? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 17:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- ⲁⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲙⲉⲩⲓ - ⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:22, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- You don't think it is correcter? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 23:54, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- I though it's just two ways to say the same thing? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 23:29, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- I always thought ⲁⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲙⲉⲩⲓ is, at least prescriptively, correct and neutral. If you want to stress it's the subject you can write ⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲇⲉ ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ. Where have you seen constructions like ⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ as the default? (I'm actually really curious) Because I can imagine that the construction where the past tense marker does not go in front of the non-pronominal subject and just sticks to the verb regardless is more "progressive", and would fit well into Coptic becoming more isolating. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've looked through Matt. quickly – ⲧⲟⲧⲉ Ⲏⲣⲱⲇⲏⲥ ⲁϥⲙⲟⲩϯ ⲉ̀ⲛⲓⲙⲁⲅⲟⲥ ⲛ̀ⲭⲱⲡ... (Matt. 2:7), ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲁϥⲧⲱⲛϥ ̀ⲛϫⲉ Ⲓⲏ̅ⲥ̅ ⲁϥⲙⲟϣⲓ ̀ⲛⲥⲱϥ ⲛⲉⲙ ⲛⲉϥⲙⲁⲑⲏⲧⲏⲥ (Matt. 9:19), ̀ⲛⲑⲟϥ ⲇⲉ ⲡⲉϫⲁϥ ϫⲉ ̀ⲁⲙⲟⲩ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ̀ⲉⲧⲁϥ̀ⲓ ̀ⲉ̀ϧⲣⲏⲓ ̀ⲉⲃⲟⲗϩⲓ ⲡⲓϫⲟⲓ ̀ⲛϫⲉ Ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ ⲁϥⲙⲟϣⲓ ϩⲓϫⲉⲛ ⲛⲓⲙⲱⲟⲩ ̀ⲉ̀ⲓ ϩⲁ Ⲓⲏ̅ⲥ̅ (Matt. 14:29),. Although I'm not sure if Ⲓⲏ̅ⲥ̅ and Ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ actually relate to ⲁϥⲙⲟϣⲓ in these cases as they are preceded by ⲛ̀ϫⲉ. But I always thought that in case of prolepsis like ⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲇⲉ ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ the subject is just reintroduced as a pronoun in ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ (and ⲇⲉ doesn't makes a big difference here). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
- I personally prefer the structure ⲁⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲙⲉⲩⲓ just because it's clearly more original and attested in earlier forms of Egyptian. But if ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ prefers the other way, it's whatever. As long as it's not ungrammatical otherwise. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, yes, no hard feelings here. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:09, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I prefer both, was just curious about it. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 11:00, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, yes, no hard feelings here. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 04:09, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I personally prefer the structure ⲁⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲙⲉⲩⲓ just because it's clearly more original and attested in earlier forms of Egyptian. But if ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ prefers the other way, it's whatever. As long as it's not ungrammatical otherwise. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- I've looked through Matt. quickly – ⲧⲟⲧⲉ Ⲏⲣⲱⲇⲏⲥ ⲁϥⲙⲟⲩϯ ⲉ̀ⲛⲓⲙⲁⲅⲟⲥ ⲛ̀ⲭⲱⲡ... (Matt. 2:7), ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲁϥⲧⲱⲛϥ ̀ⲛϫⲉ Ⲓⲏ̅ⲥ̅ ⲁϥⲙⲟϣⲓ ̀ⲛⲥⲱϥ ⲛⲉⲙ ⲛⲉϥⲙⲁⲑⲏⲧⲏⲥ (Matt. 9:19), ̀ⲛⲑⲟϥ ⲇⲉ ⲡⲉϫⲁϥ ϫⲉ ̀ⲁⲙⲟⲩ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ̀ⲉⲧⲁϥ̀ⲓ ̀ⲉ̀ϧⲣⲏⲓ ̀ⲉⲃⲟⲗϩⲓ ⲡⲓϫⲟⲓ ̀ⲛϫⲉ Ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ ⲁϥⲙⲟϣⲓ ϩⲓϫⲉⲛ ⲛⲓⲙⲱⲟⲩ ̀ⲉ̀ⲓ ϩⲁ Ⲓⲏ̅ⲥ̅ (Matt. 14:29),. Although I'm not sure if Ⲓⲏ̅ⲥ̅ and Ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ actually relate to ⲁϥⲙⲟϣⲓ in these cases as they are preceded by ⲛ̀ϫⲉ. But I always thought that in case of prolepsis like ⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲇⲉ ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ the subject is just reintroduced as a pronoun in ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ (and ⲇⲉ doesn't makes a big difference here). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
- I always thought ⲁⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲙⲉⲩⲓ is, at least prescriptively, correct and neutral. If you want to stress it's the subject you can write ⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲇⲉ ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ. Where have you seen constructions like ⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ as the default? (I'm actually really curious) Because I can imagine that the construction where the past tense marker does not go in front of the non-pronominal subject and just sticks to the verb regardless is more "progressive", and would fit well into Coptic becoming more isolating. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- I though it's just two ways to say the same thing? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 23:29, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- You don't think it is correcter? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 23:54, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- ⲁⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲙⲉⲩⲓ - ⲕⲱⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲥ ⲡⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲁϥⲙⲉⲩⲓ --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:22, 26 December 2020 (UTC)