Talk:Wp/cop/ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ
Add topicLatest comment: 4 years ago by Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ
Where does ϩⲉⲛⲧ come from? A proposed borrowing from Persian? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:10, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe, or Arabic without article? Or, looking at what بطرس مرقس wrote, it could also be a backformation from ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ, which fits well I think. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:31, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Manichean Kephalaia Codex has ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲙ̀ⲡϩⲛⲧⲟⲩ so it looks like they've used ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for "India". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- And this doesn't mean rather "Indian land"? Crum also notes ⲧⲡⲟⲗⲓⲥ ⲙⲡϩⲛⲧⲟⲩ. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 18:18, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- In Crum it's actually "ⲧⲡⲟⲗⲓⲥ ⲛⲛϩⲛⲧⲟⲩ", "city of Indiands". ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲙ̀ⲡϩⲛⲧⲟⲩ is curious because you'd expect a usual construction ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲛ̀ⲛⲓϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ or ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲛ̀ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ but it has ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ which is more "country of India" than "Indian country". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Btw Scala Magna has ⲡⲓϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for "India" as well. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:09, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- So you suggest ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for India? What do we call Indians and Hindus? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ – India, ⲛⲓϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ - Indians, Hindus (the two are indistinguishable in Coptic but if you want to you can use ⲛⲓⲣⲉⲙⲉⲧϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ given that ⲙⲉⲧϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ is "Hinduism"). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 10:54, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've also found out that there's also another name for India which is rendered differently in different texts and manuscripts – ⲧⲉⲛⲇⲓⲕⲉ, ⲧⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲉ, ⲑⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲏ (the latter in the Coptic text of George Sobhy’s edition of Le Martyre de Saint Hélias, et L’Encomium de l’évêque Stéphanos de Hnès sur Saint Hélias) and ⲧⲉⲛⲇⲓⲁ, ⲧⲉⲛⲧⲓⲁ, ⲧⲓⲛⲇⲓⲁ, ⲧⲁⲛⲇⲓⲁ. In all these examples ⲧ seems to be a definite article so it's actually ⲉⲛⲇ(ⲧ)ⲓⲕⲉ(ⲏ) from Greek η Ινδιχη or ⲓⲛⲇ(ⲧ)ⲓⲁ from Greek η Ινδια. I think we could use it as well. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm fine with ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ. I think it would be a bit better to distinguish between India, Hindus and Indians, but if that's what is attested, we should go for it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 18:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Distinction is a good point, and I think it would be better if modern Coptic uses ϩⲉⲛⲧ for the country. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 18:51, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- What about ⲑⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲏ (ⲧϩⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲏ) for India, and ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for "Indian" so "the India" and "the Indian" wouldn't be homonyms (ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ)? Or just (ⲧ)ⲓⲛⲇⲓⲁ (as turns out it's actually attested and was in use) for country and ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for a demonym. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 19:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Why not ϩⲉⲛⲧ? Greek is anti-Bohairic and more of a Sahidic thing. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Because it is not attested, and although I think that wouldn't be too much of a problem if we could be sure it would have been used. But the fact that also in Demotic, the country is hntw (and hndwy in Hieratic?), means that "India" was never ϩⲉⲛⲧ, but rather ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oh it is attested there? Then let's use ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ :D ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 19:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- As far as i know hntw is "Indian" just like Coptic "ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ" but looks like in Coptic ⲡⲓϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ became "India" as well. Btw ϩⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲉ is attested as ꜥntsyke in Demotic as well. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 23:19, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oh it is attested there? Then let's use ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ :D ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 19:38, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Because it is not attested, and although I think that wouldn't be too much of a problem if we could be sure it would have been used. But the fact that also in Demotic, the country is hntw (and hndwy in Hieratic?), means that "India" was never ϩⲉⲛⲧ, but rather ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Why not ϩⲉⲛⲧ? Greek is anti-Bohairic and more of a Sahidic thing. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- What about ⲑⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲏ (ⲧϩⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲏ) for India, and ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for "Indian" so "the India" and "the Indian" wouldn't be homonyms (ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ)? Or just (ⲧ)ⲓⲛⲇⲓⲁ (as turns out it's actually attested and was in use) for country and ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for a demonym. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 19:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- Distinction is a good point, and I think it would be better if modern Coptic uses ϩⲉⲛⲧ for the country. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 18:51, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'm fine with ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ. I think it would be a bit better to distinguish between India, Hindus and Indians, but if that's what is attested, we should go for it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 18:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- I've also found out that there's also another name for India which is rendered differently in different texts and manuscripts – ⲧⲉⲛⲇⲓⲕⲉ, ⲧⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲉ, ⲑⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲏ (the latter in the Coptic text of George Sobhy’s edition of Le Martyre de Saint Hélias, et L’Encomium de l’évêque Stéphanos de Hnès sur Saint Hélias) and ⲧⲉⲛⲇⲓⲁ, ⲧⲉⲛⲧⲓⲁ, ⲧⲓⲛⲇⲓⲁ, ⲧⲁⲛⲇⲓⲁ. In all these examples ⲧ seems to be a definite article so it's actually ⲉⲛⲇ(ⲧ)ⲓⲕⲉ(ⲏ) from Greek η Ινδιχη or ⲓⲛⲇ(ⲧ)ⲓⲁ from Greek η Ινδια. I think we could use it as well. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 13:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ – India, ⲛⲓϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ - Indians, Hindus (the two are indistinguishable in Coptic but if you want to you can use ⲛⲓⲣⲉⲙⲉⲧϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ given that ⲙⲉⲧϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ is "Hinduism"). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 10:54, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
- So you suggest ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for India? What do we call Indians and Hindus? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Btw Scala Magna has ⲡⲓϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for "India" as well. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:09, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- In Crum it's actually "ⲧⲡⲟⲗⲓⲥ ⲛⲛϩⲛⲧⲟⲩ", "city of Indiands". ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲙ̀ⲡϩⲛⲧⲟⲩ is curious because you'd expect a usual construction ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲛ̀ⲛⲓϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ or ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲛ̀ϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ but it has ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ which is more "country of India" than "Indian country". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- And this doesn't mean rather "Indian land"? Crum also notes ⲧⲡⲟⲗⲓⲥ ⲙⲡϩⲛⲧⲟⲩ. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 18:18, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Manichean Kephalaia Codex has ⲧⲭⲱⲣⲁ ⲙ̀ⲡϩⲛⲧⲟⲩ so it looks like they've used ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ for "India". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Hi, yes I intended it as a backformation. We can use ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ if this is attested. بطرس مرقس (talk) 11:53, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Jesus, that was hard... So than let's use ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ, I don't see clear, strong objections. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'd take ϩⲉⲛⲧⲓⲕⲏ as it's attested in both Coptic and Demotic with a clear sense of "India" but ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ is fine as well (although creates some confusion between "the Indian" and "India"). --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:11, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Jesus, that was hard... So than let's use ⲡϩⲉⲛⲧⲟⲩ, I don't see clear, strong objections. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:32, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Isn't it hntsky or something in Demotic and it isn't even clear if it refers to India? If it's clear, I'm fine with that too. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 14:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oh wow be consistent, it's taken from Greek. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Ah thats why you're into it ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 14:39, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Of course :) Don't forget i'm a colonialist half Greek Tsarist agent. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:48, 28 July 2020 (UTC)