Talk:Wp/cop/ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ ⲱ ⲛ̀ϯⲡⲉⲣⲥⲓⲥ

The word for "pyramid" here is based on Schenkel's theory about the etymology of both Greek pyramis and Arabic haram from Coptic ⲫⲣⲁⲙ (ⲣⲁⲙ is AE mr). I'm not sure if it's ⲫ-ⲣⲁⲙ or ⲡ-ϩⲣⲁⲙ. There's no evidence to this claim and it's too bold to use it as a legit word on Coptic Wikipedia so I guess it's safer to just use ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ for "pyramid". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 19:53, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the safest is ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ, let's use that. Schenkel's theory is far-fetched, and a metathesis rm < mr is not accepted by leading experts (like Takacs). ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ is best. If sometime the vocalization of mr is clear, we can rethink it. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:05, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, i'll change it then. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 09:44, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think we should use ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥⲟ/ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥⲱⲟⲩ for "great pyramid/great pyramids" or this combination looks rather strange? We could just use ⲛⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲙ̀ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ instead. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 09:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ⲟ doesn't seem to be used with Greek words, so ⲛⲓⲛⲓϣϯ ⲙ̀ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ looks better. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 13:30, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ⲱ is actually used with Greek names – see Crum for ⲓⲥⲁⲁⲕ ⲱ, ⲓⲟⲩⲗⲓ ⲱ, ⲡⲁⲣⲑⲉⲛⲟⲡⲏ ⲱ. So maybe ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ ⲱ (or ⲟ I'm not sure if ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ is m. or f.) is not that weird. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 12:40, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK, yes, then let's use ⲟ, for the great pyramid ϯⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ ⲱ? And ⲛⲓⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ ⲱⲟⲩ? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 18:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Plural -ⲱⲟⲩ is used in compounds so i guess it would be ⲛⲓⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ ⲱ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 19:17, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is ⲟ masculine and ⲱ feminine, or plural or what's the difference? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 00:08, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ⲟ is masculine, ⲱ is feminine, -ⲱⲟⲩ is plural used in compounds like ⲓⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩ. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 11:18, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why the title not ⲛⲓⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ? It looks like an article is about a single Great Pyramid. Is there any consensus on Wiki about not using definite articles in the names btw? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 18:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And maybe ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ ⲛ̀ϯⲡⲉⲣⲥⲓⲥ "Pyramids of Gizeh" would be better, without ⲱ. Only one Pyramid is great, the one of Cheops. So far, the Coptic wikipedia doesn't use articles in the titles. But I don't know what is better. It doesn't seem there is a consensus about the use of articles across all wikipedias, and I checked other wikipedias of languages which use articles. Everybody handles it differently. In our case, the earlier title also didn't use ⲛⲓ, so I don't see the problem. ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 19:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The earlier name implied the plurality by -ⲱⲟⲩ ending. But you're right, only one pyramid is actually called Great. But we will face the same problem with other articles about something "plural". I think it's better to be consistent in it. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 19:34, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't we consistent now in not using the article? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 20:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So we shouldn't use them for names with plurals as well? And if the article's title has two words and one of them has an article? --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 20:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm could you give some examples? So what about an article about "Semitic languages". You want it to be ⲛⲓⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲥⲏⲙ with article? ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 21:09, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, otherwise it's just "Semitic language". Or for example we want to create an article "persecution of Christians" – ⲇⲓⲱⲅⲙⲟⲥ ⲛ̀ⲛⲓⲭⲣⲓⲥⲧⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ where we will have the definite article in the second word but not the first one (it looks ok in English but not it Coptic where we need the definite article to express a plurality). It's just the first example that came to my mind, you can think of plenty more. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 21:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And what is wrong about the meaning "Semitic language"? You want to have redirects from ϩⲁⲛⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲥⲏⲙ, ϯⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲥⲏⲙ, ⲟⲩⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲥⲏⲙ to ⲛⲓⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲛⲣⲉⲙⲛⲥⲏⲙ? Also why do you think that only ⲛⲓⲁⲥⲡⲓ is plural? Check your singularocentric biases. And ⲇⲓⲱⲅⲙⲟⲥ ⲛ̀ⲛⲓⲭⲣⲓⲥⲧⲓⲁⲛⲟⲥ is fine, as it is not ⲛⲓⲇⲓⲱⲅⲙⲟⲥ ⲛ̀ⲛⲓⲭⲣⲓⲥⲧⲓⲁⲛⲟⲛ ⲁⲛⲉⲯⲓⲟⲩⲥⲓⲣⲓ (talk) 21:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously because "semitic languages" is not "semitic language". --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 22:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]