Talk:Wp/cop/ⲫⲙⲁⲙⲡⲥⲱⲟⲩⲁϩ (ⲑⲱϣ)

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Latest comment: 3 years ago by Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ

Is ⲡⲟⲩϥⲓⲥⲁ really Bohairic? It doesnt sound very genuinely Coptic. And the change from Pouphisa - Manfuswiya - Banmaswiya - Bani Suef sounds pretty quixotic. That reminds me of those Turkish nationalists who think that Thrace and Troy are actually names to be derived from "türk". Abdülhamit-i Sâlis (talk) 20:59, 16 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

Trismegistos. Can't really say that Amelineau or Ramzi could be Coptic nationalists. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 17:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Hello everbody, sorry, I have been sick the last months. Amélineau 1893: 365 mentions ⲡⲟⲩⲫⲓⲥⲁ (he spells it with ⲫ), but he is not sure which city it refers too ("L'incertitude de la lecture ne m'offre aucune solution plausible"). But he says it could be modern Biba (which is in the Bani Suef governorate): "Peut-être faut-il lire Medinet-Bebâ". The English wikipedia lists ⲡⲁⲡⲟ as the Coptic name for Biba, which is not found in Amélineau.
So... I don't know. All three names are probably made up by somebody or refer to some other city than they are used now. Any suggestions? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 18:06, 22 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Hello ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ, nice to see you here again! Hope you're doing well.
Biba is mentioned in Greek as Παπα while Demotic name is Pȝ-mȝ or Pr-pȝ-mȝ which would lead to Coptic ⲡⲁⲙⲁ so i'm not sure where does this name from Wikipedia come from (probably just made up). But most likely that's not ⲡⲟⲩϥⲓⲥⲁ. I've actually found info on Pouphisa in "Quelques réflexions sur l’apport de l’arabe dans la toponymie égyptienne." by Sophia Björnesjö (AnIsl 30 (1996)) – "d'apres Amélineau et Ramzi il s'agit d'une ultime transformation d'un ancien nom egyptien, Pouphisa, qui devint Manfuswiya (Manqusna chez Ibn Duqmāq), ouis Banmaswiya et enfin au XVI siecle fut "arabisé" en Bani Swayf." No original souce is cited for Amélineau though (for Ramzi it's obivously his Geographical Dictionary which i unfortunately couldn't find online). ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 21:57, 22 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
Then let's stick to Pouphisa. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 03:07, 23 April 2019 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sure about Pouphisa at all at the moment. I'd rather agree with Peust that Manfiswayh looks more like a typical Middle Egyptian ⲙⲁ-ⲛ-ⲡ... construction (ⲡⲙⲁⲛⲡⲥⲱⲟⲩ(ⲁ)ϩ was suggested). There’s also a ghost name in Bawit ostraca – ⲡⲙⲁⲛⲡⲁⲏⲥⲉ, «the place of Paesi» (Manfaysah?). The name «Isis» is also attested as ⲉⲓⲥⲉⲓ so i guess it could also be ⲙⲁⲛⲡⲁⲉⲓⲥⲉⲓ. I'm not sure though that the second development is phonetically possible. --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:45, 22 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
So this would be most likely ⲙⲁⲛⲡⲁⲏⲥⲓ oder ⲙⲁⲙⲡⲁⲏⲥⲓ in Bohairic? But all the oldest forms of the toponym (Manfaswayh, Manfuswiya) seem to contain a labial glide, where would that come from? Or is the last element some derivation of ⲥⲱⲟⲩϩ 'to gather'? ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 16:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)Reply
Right, i think it's rather ⲙⲁⲛⲡⲥⲱⲟⲩϩ than ⲙⲁⲛⲡⲁⲏⲥⲓ. I have no other suitable theories about it at the moment.--ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2020 (UTC)Reply