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Talk:Wp/cop/ⲡϣⲉⲣⲡϩⲟ

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Latest comment: 2 years ago by Mahmudmasri in topic Join the discussion

Text rendering[edit source]

Is this encoded in UTF-8? I ask because Coptic characters show up properly for me on the English Wikipedia, but render as mojibake here. 75.154.72.240

What font is the page currently using for Coptic language writing? I can't read the title, so I'm assuming it's not whatever the English language wiki uses for Coptic. Also, which dialect will this wiki be in? Sahidic seems to have more English-language grammars (i.e., Lambdin, Bentley-Layton, etc.), but Bohairic is the preferred liturgical dialect for the Coptic Orthodox Church and the most recently-spoken dialect. Any ideas? 138.253.210.23 14:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC)NefertumReply

According to the page source it uses "font-family:Garamond, serif;". It displays properly for me. Which browser/operating system are you using? Which dialect is up to the contributors like you. However, note that we generally don't approve new Wikipedias in historical languages, so I'm not sure this is a viable project. SPQRobin 13:15, 12 January 2012 (UTC)Reply
I cannot read the Coptic letters, how can we ensure that the Coptic alphabet is visible to all users and contributors? --User:Toichtēcatl, 10.01.2014

I use the current Coptic language, which is used by every Egypt who knows Coptic. So it is Bohairic. I dont think that there will be many contributors who know Saidic, Fayumic, or other dialects as they are not spoken anymore. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ 12/02/2015

Where download egyptian (coptic) script?[edit source]

This very necessary wikipedia -- CYl7EPTEMA777 (talk) 02:49, 24 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Google chrome, tor and yandex browser shows only squares -- CYl7EPTEMA777 (talk) 09:47, 1 August 2017 (UTC)Reply
@CYl7EPTEMA777 This page has Coptic fonts which can be downloaded to your computer. --Philip J (talk) 13:24, 19 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

Good luck[edit source]

I can't read Coptic, but I'm glad to see it here and being worked. I hope to see it leave the incubator and go to a full-on wiki.--137.254.7.165 12:06, 30 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

Coptic neologisms[edit source]

Here the problem of Coptic neologisms, which was adressed in this discussion https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:%E2%B2%81%CF%A9%E2%B2%99%E2%B2%89%E2%B2%A7#Means_of_communication , I think we should create a new page with the title "Coptic neologisms" in the Wikipedia, which explains new Coptic words in English and Arabic. What do you think?

I can start such a lemma, I dont know however, which form you prefer? A table or a list with stars (the latter is easier for me) ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 21:33, 18 December 2017 (UTC) ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 21:33, 18 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Yes, a list of neologisms would be very very helpful! Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 21:35, 18 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Look at this please: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/cop/%E2%B2%A5%E2%B2%81%CF%AB%E2%B2%93_%60%E2%B2%99%E2%B2%83%E2%B2%89%E2%B2%A3%E2%B2%93_%60%E2%B2%9B%E2%B2%A3%E2%B2%89%E2%B2%99%E2%B2%9B%E2%B2%AD%E2%B2%8F%E2%B2%99%E2%B2%93

ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 22:04, 18 December 2017 (UTC)Reply

Transliteration/Transcription[edit source]

As the discussion came up (here https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wp/cop/%E2%B2%99%E2%B2%9F%E2%B2%A5%E2%B2%AD%E2%B2%B1 ) of how to use ⲭ ⲫ ⲑ (and maybe other letters) for representing foreign words in Coptic, let us have a debate here.

If I dare to interpret them (please feel free to correct me), ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ and Bloomaround said that ⲭ ⲫ ⲑ are a bit too often used here.

It is true that in Bohairic, ⲭ ⲫ ⲑ are only used for K P T before stressed syllables or before y, l, m, n, r, w when it is etymologically justified.

To give an example, right now Jakarta is written ϫⲁⲭⲁⲣⲑⲁ. As the second syllable is stressed, we could also write it as ϫⲁⲭⲁⲣⲧⲁ.

It is true that we use those letters extensively and almost always to represent K P T. I am so far indifferent to both ways. The advantage of not using ⲭ ⲫ ⲑ all the time is that it is just more traditional Coptic. The disadvantage is, that we dont always know the stress of the syllable and also that we may give up an effective method to consistently distinguish k p t from b d g.

Please join the discussion with your ideas. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 00:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

I can live with both ways, but I am slightly inclined to use the more traditional Coptic one with less ⲭ ⲫ ⲑ. But I still want to use ⲭ ⲫ ⲑ - By no means they should get abolished! Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 00:58, 18 January 2018 (UTC)Reply

In any case, we should not use ⲅ ⲇ for g and d, as they are not used in this way (except in Greek words). Also, ⲅ and ⲇ are used for representing Arabic ghayn and dhal. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 20:49, 27 February 2018 (UTC)Reply

ⲙⲉⲧ ⲙⲉⲑ ⲁⲧ ⲁⲑ[edit source]

Again, issues with ⲑ ⲫ ⲭ... So, so far many of us (including me) have not paid a great attention to when to write the one or the other. Generally, and this rule applies also to some other cases, like the articles ⲫ- vs ⲡ- etc, the voiceless form is used before the consonants ⲓ ⲟⲩ ⲗ ⲙ ⲛ ⲣ when they're stressed, but not, when they're unstressed. Thus, it is ⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ, because it is medremnkámi, not metrémnkami. But it is ⲙⲉⲑⲛⲟⲩϯ because of metnúdi and ⲙⲉⲑⲙⲏϣ metmáash. The same rules apply for the prefix ⲁⲧ ⲁⲑ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 14:03, 3 August 2018 (UTC)Reply

Renderings of Arabic vowels in Coptic[edit source]

The rendering of Arabic vowels in Coptic depends a lot on the surroundings of the vowels. Having analyzed Arabic written in Bohairic Coptic orthography, and Arabic words in Bohairic Coptic, Helmut Satzinger came to the following results (in "Zur Phonetik des Bohairischen und des Ägyptisch-Arabischen im Mittelalter"):

  • ⲁ generally used for Arabic a, a: (for dark a)
  • ⲉ generally used for Arabic i (when unstressed), a, a: (for non-dark, "normal" a)
  • ⲓ generally used for Arabic i:
  • ⲟ generally used for Arabic u, u:
  • ⲟⲩ generally used for Arabic u:
  • ⲁⲩ generally used for Arabic aw
  • ⲁⲓ, ⲉⲓ, ⲏⲓ generally used for Arabic ay

There are of course exceptions, but it is noteworthy that ⲏ is only rarely used. So it would be good to keep that in mind when we render Arabic words in Coptic. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

Also as far as i know unstressed "a" is rendered as ⲉ in almost every case. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 08:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

New wiki soooooon![edit source]

Instead of Wp/cop there is cop.Wikipedia.org

Phonology[edit source]

Guys, I'm interested in reviewing a source with the (late) Bohairic Coptic phonology and syllable structure, i.e. pronunciation in the international phonetic alphabet (IPA). The sources in the w:en:Coptic alphabet article were not precise enough.

I'm also interested in knowing which standard you chose and why.

There are many letters that have become to be pronounced the same, but perhaps with exceptions. I firmly believe there must have been allophones for some consonants since vowels had them. E.g.

The syllable structure is a riddle, as it might have become somewhat like modern Egyptian Arabic or only influenced to some extent, evidenced by the shifting of many consonants and vowels from Traditional Bohairic.

I wanna know, as I'm interested in rendering all Coptic names in the English Wikipedia in IPA with the late Bohairic pronunciation [1], the last known stage of Coptic as a living language.

I see many inconsistencies and confusion about how Coptic is supposed to be pronounced. Thanks all. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 19:19, 12 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Particular letters[edit source]

Late Bohairic consonants (20)
Labial Alveolar Palatal Velar Glottal
Nasal م
m
ن
n
Stop پ~ب~ف
p~b~f

ب~ف
b~f

ϥ ف
f

وـ~ڤ~ب
w~b (w~β~b?)

(ⲟ)ⲩ وـ
w
ت
t

د~ت
d~t

د
d

ϯ دى
di
ϫ ش~ج
ʃ~ɟ

ϭ ش~ج
ʃ~ɟ

ϣ ش
ʃ
ك
k

ك
k



ج
ɡ
Fricative س
s
ϧ خ
x
ϩ هـ~ح
h(~ħ?)
ز
z
Approximant ل
l
(ⲉ)ⲓ يـ
j
Flap ر
ɾ
Possible vowels (9)
Front Back
-ⲓ

i
ⲟⲩ

u(ː)
ⲓ ⲏ- ⲩ

ɪ

o
ⲓⲉ ϯⲉ

e de

 
  ̀  

ə~e
ⲉ -ⲏ

æ

ɑ
Diphthongs (vowel+glide)
Front Back
ⲟⲓ, ⲱⲓ (ⲟⲏ ⲱⲏ?)

oj, oːj
ⲟⲟⲩ, ⲱⲟⲩ

ow, oːw
ⲉⲓ ⲏⲓ

æj
ⲉⲩ

æw
ⲁⲓ

ɑj
ⲁⲩ

ɑw

The phonemes written with the following letters are of particular interest:

  • /w~b/ or probably /w~β~b/? ⲍⲉⲃⲉⲑⲉ evolved to /ˈzeftæ/ which means, it must have been pronounced as [β] and was devoiced before ⲑ after canceling the in-between vowel, otherwise, it would have been */ˈzebtæ/.
    • Evolved twice to */ˈzeptæ/, then /ˈzeftæ/?
  • highly doubtful to have become for both open vowels /æ/ and /ɑ/. The vowel has understandably shifted from /ɛ/ and became harmonious with ⲁ /ɑ/.
  • also like ⲉ, it's highly unlikely to have had /ɑ/ as an allophone.
  • only /b/? Not /b~f/ and never /p/, particularly by careful speakers? How did ⲧⲡⲏϩ evolve to /ʔɑtˤˈfiːħ/, but not */ʔɑtˤˈbiːħ/.
  • was it /b/ or /f/, or depending on position, or did it have two allophones, /b/ and /f/? How to explain ϯⲫⲣⲉ (Egyptian Arabic: /ˈdefɾæ/) and ϫⲉⲫⲣⲟ (Egyptian Arabic: /ˈʃobɾɑ/), both before /ɾ/? Did ϯ have an effect?
  • /ps/ or /bs/?
  • long /oː/ or short /o/?
  • ϩ has highly likely had an allophone as /ħ/ (like Arabic ح) and syllable-finally, but not before all consonants. How did the final consonant in ⲧⲡⲏϩ evolve to /ħ/ (like Arabic ح) and in ⲕⲁϩⲕ (Egyptian Arabic: /kæħk/), but not "remain" /h/? It remained in ⲧⲁϩϭⲟⲩⲣ (likely /dɑh(t)ʃu(ː)ɾ/), the same as the Egyptian Arabic pronunciation, /dɑhˈʃuːɾ/.
  • ϫ /ɟ/ is such a mysterious one, sometimes evolved to /ɡ/, as in ⲡⲉϫⲁⲙ, in Egyptian Arabic: /beˈɡæːm/ (بيجام), but other times as /ʃ/, as in ϫⲉⲫⲣⲟ ⲉⲙⲉⲛⲧ, in Egyptian Arabic: /ˈʃobɾɑ mænt/ (شبرا منت), which leads to two theories:
    1. [ɟ] between vowels, but [ʃ] otherwise.
    2. It was actually more like /t͡ʃ/, softened to [ʃ], or /d͡ʒ/, changed to [ɡ] or [ʃ] in Egyptian Arabic.
    • An interesting example is ϫⲉⲃⲣⲟⲛ̀ⲛⲉϫⲓ evolving to /ʃæbˈɾenɡi/ (شبرنجى‎)
  • ϭ as the former, ϫ?

--Mahmudmasri (talk) 20:51, 12 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

How to learn Coptic?[edit source]

Hi again. How did you guys learn Coptic or where? I wanna learn it, too. I also learned Hebrew, but it was available in books and the internet. I believe it would be the easiest language I'll learn, since Egyptian Arabic acquired a lot of logic and grammar from it. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 21:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Join the discussion[edit source]

Every contributor is invited to join my discussion at User:Mahmudmasri/Coptic. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 13:28, 21 January 2022 (UTC)Reply