Talk:Wp/cop/ⲓⲟⲙ ⲉⲧϧⲉⲛⲑⲙⲏϯ

I’m not sure what a proper Coptic name for Mediterranean is so i just took the first part of hieroglyphic wꜣḏ-wr which became ⲟⲩⲱⲧ in Coptic so it would make «Green Sea». I also don’t know what is the name for Black Sea so i’ve just translated it literally.

In later Egyptian times, the Mediterranean, was called "Syrian Sea", Demotic ym H̱r, Hieroglyphic p3 ym ˁ3 n Ḫr ("the great sea of Syria"). These two words would be ⲓⲉⲙϧⲁⲗ and ⲫⲓⲉⲙⲟ `ⲛϧⲁⲗ or ⲫⲓⲉⲙⲟⲛϧⲁⲗ in Coptic. wꜣḏ-wr, which rather designates Lake Moeris in Demotic, would be ⲟⲩⲉⲧⲟⲩⲏⲣ. I am busy right now, but I will write more about it later today. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 15:46, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So, I would prefer ⲫⲓⲉⲙϧⲁⲗ for the Mediterranean Sea as this is the closest to Demotic. It could also be ⲫⲓⲁⲙϧⲁⲗ, because the vowel of the construct state of nouns with Bohairic ⲟ is sometimes ⲁ (i.e. ⲓⲟⲣ - ⲓⲁⲣⲟ), sometimes ⲉ (ⲓⲟⲡⲓ - ⲓⲉⲡ), with ⲁ being older than ⲉ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 23:12, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok cool, ⲫⲓⲉⲙϧⲁⲗ looks pretty good to me --Bloomaround (talk) 06:48, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, if it is a word from Demotic, we can use it without much hesitation. I move it. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 10:29, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also, i’m not sure how to say «strait» in Coptic so i used ⲓⲟⲣ instead for Gibraltar. And do we use ⲇ for clearly borrowed names? Or should i rather write ⲧⲁⲣⲧⲁⲛⲉⲗⲗⲓⲁ? Bloomaround (talk) 13:43, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Currently, ⲅ is often used for Arabic ghayn and ⲇ for dhal. ⲅ and ⲇ should not be used, except for Greek loanwords, in Coptic. The reason why they are used in Greek loanwords is because it is traditionally perceived that Coptic and Greek share the same alphabet and Greek words can therefore be directly taken into Coptic. However, even then, I have the feeling that often a more Egyptian orthography is used, i.e. ⲧⲉⲙⲱⲛ instead of ⲇⲁⲓⲙⲱⲛ. For loanwords from Western languages in Latin script, we should focus more on the actual pronunciation than the respective orthography. With "actual pronunciation" I generally mean the local pronunciation of the respective language, but with many toponyms it is often a more "internationalized" variant. I.e. ⲣⲓⲟ ⲧⲉ ϣⲁⲛⲏⲣⲟ, even though no person from Rio de Janeiro would call the city "rio-de-zhanero", but rather "khiu-dji-zhaneru" (which would be a weird ϧⲓⲟⲩϫⲓϣⲁⲛⲏⲣⲟⲩ). The same is true for the opposite ⲣⲓⲟ ⲇⲉ ϫⲁⲛⲉⲓⲣⲟ or ⲣⲓⲟ ⲇⲉ ⲓⲁⲛⲉⲓⲣⲟ, which would just be a letter-by-letter translation.

For the Dardanelles, I'd prefer ⲉⲗⲗⲏⲥⲡⲟⲛⲧⲟⲥ, as this is the Ancient Greek name, or partly Egyptianized, ⲫⲓⲟⲙ `ⲛⲉⲗⲗⲏ or, even more "Egyptian", ⲫⲓⲉⲙⲛⲉⲗⲗⲏ. ⲁϩⲙⲉⲧ (talk) 23:12, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the information! I'm not sure that we should use Ancient Greek name though. As you said, maybe we should rather use "internationalized" variant, which i think Dardanelles is. I mean you can easily use "Bosphorus and Dardanelles" as synonym to Turkish Straits in general, in Russian at least, and i'm pretty sure in English as well. So it's kinda phraseology. It is also connected with major events of WW1 and appears to be widely known because of that.--Bloomaround (talk) 06:48, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I generally prefer words which, in case Coptic would have continued to be spoken and written (in non-religious environments), could have entered Coptic. And ⲉⲗⲗⲏⲥⲡⲟⲛⲧⲟⲥ is the most probable. Although I personally like ⲫⲓⲟⲙ `ⲛⲉⲗⲗⲏ and ⲫⲓⲉⲙⲛⲉⲗⲗⲏ too. Speaking of probability, ⲫⲓⲉⲙⲛⲉⲗⲗⲏ would not have been coined very likely, because in the first centuries AD Egyptian intellectuals (no one other than an intellectual would need a word for this place) would rather haven taken a Greek word than an Egyptian translation with a construct state word as in ⲫⲓⲉⲙⲛⲉⲗⲗⲏ. ⲫⲓⲟⲙ `ⲛⲉⲗⲗⲏ is more probable in this respect. The problem with "Dardanellia" or so is, that, why should it be ⲇⲁⲣⲇⲁⲛⲉⲗⲗⲓⲁ or ⲧⲁⲣⲧⲁⲛⲉⲗⲗⲓⲁ. That's modern Greek, although most of the time even in modern Greek Ελλήσποντος is used. In any case, it shouldn't matter what Modern Greek does if there's an Ancient Greek word, because the close relationship is between Ancient Greek and Coptic, not modern Greek. We should only use international variants for cities and places far away from Egypt, where translations or similar Egyptianism don't make sense, because neither Ancient Egyptians nor Ancient Graeco-Romans knew it, i.e. ⲑⲟⲭⲓⲟ. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 10:46, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, but the name Dardanelles is not modern Greek one, it is in use at least from the Byzantine times, and comes from the town of the same name which itself is named after Dardanos, a hero of Greek mythology. Talking of words that could have entered Coptic, why wouldn't this shift from ancient to modern name happen in it just like it happened in all other languages surrounding Byzantine/Ottoman Empire? I think we should distinguish two type of names – modern and historical one, just like in Greek for Hellespontos and Dardanelles or Istanbul which has it's official name and tons of historical names like Constantinople (i believe it is used in Greek as an official one, but that's exception), Tsargrad (in Slavic languages), Miklagard (in descendants of Old Norse) etc. I'm pretty sure all the languages that contact with each other lean towards the exchange and unification of vocabulary, especially when it comes to place names. There are a lot of examples: Konigsberg has lost it's Prussian name Twangste and Slavic name Korolevets, previously used in Russian, Polish, Czech etc. and all these languages adopted it's German name. Greek Pantikapaion was called Karcha by Khazars and all other languages, including Italian and Russian started to use this form. These are the first examples i could think of, i'm sure there's plenty more. --Bloomaround (talk) 13:35, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with using modern names, but with toponyms and concepts of Ancient Greece, where also modern Greek has kept its old name (Hellespont and Constantinople, not Dardanelles and Istanbul), I'm reluctant to break with tradition. Those Copts who are in the situation to need a word for Istanbul, like a priest I met, would always write ⲕⲱ(ⲛ)ⲥⲧⲁⲛⲧⲓⲛⲟⲩⲡⲟⲗⲓⲥ, never (ⲓ)ⲥⲧⲁⲙⲡⲟⲩⲗ or ⲥⲑⲁⲙⲡⲟⲩⲗ, be it because the word has always been used in Coptic, be it because of the Christian tradition they feel. Ϯⲙⲉⲗⲗⲓⲥⲏⲧ (talk) 14:10, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]