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Category talk:Incubator:Test wikis/Berber-Amazigh tests

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Latest comment: 6 years ago by StevenJ81 in topic Request for guidance/education

Suggestions[edit source]

Merging[edit source]

  • Create one Berber/Amazigh Wikipedia rather than 5.
  • This Wikipedia will cover the Northern Berber dialects/languages only. This may or may not include the Tunisian and Libyan Berber varieties.
  • Northern Berber dialects/languages are not standardized.
  • Northern Berber dialects/languages share a large amount of their vocabulary. However, many differences exist.
  • Northern Berber dialects/languages generally have the same grammar. Some regional differences exist.
  • In Morocco, Tifinagh is official. In Algeria, Latin, Tifinagh, and Arabic are used in exams. Note that Arabic and Tifinagh are also used in Morocco. There are published guidelines for the spelling system.
  • To achieve this goal, a large conversion table, based on Berber dictionaries, have to made.
  • A direct conversion between Tifinagh, Latin, and Arabic scripts is possible.
  • We can identify 3 Moroccan main dialects/languages, 3 Algerian main dialects/languages, 2 Tunisian main dialects/languages, and 2 Libyan main dialects/languages. The Tunisian and Libyan Berber communities are very small compared to Algerian and Moroccan ones. They can be ignored in the first version of the conversion table.
  • Total number of options: 3*Shilha, 2*Tamazight (Arabic doesn't seem to be common), 2*Rif, 1*Kabyle, 2*Mzab (Tifinagh is mostly symbolic), 2*Chawi = 12 options. Can be reduced and can be expanded.
    Can you clarify what you mean here? Does the numeral refer to the number of writing systems used for each? Also, I'd like you to add the language code you are referring to in each case. Is "Tamazight" tzm? zgh? Also: I'd remove Kabyle, because its Wikipedia is already approved and its Wiktionary test is fairly well developed. I'd also remove Mzab (because it doesn't have a language code) and Chawi (because there are no test projects in it.) StevenJ81 (talk) 00:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC) Reply
  • Reason: The Berber Wiki projects are slowly developing. There is no significant recent activity. Hence, one single project has a bigger potential for success than different Wikis.

Tifinagh/Latin/Arabic converter for Standard Moroccan Tamazight test wiki[edit source]

Standard Moroccan Tamazight Wikipedia seems to be doing very well currently. Since Tifinagh is the official script in Morocco, this Wikipedia is written using Moroccan Tifinagh, with some articles using Latin alphabet. However, both Latin and Arabic script are still in usage in Morocco today, so it seems better if the project supported these scripts too.

Fortunately, It is possible to convert directly between these three scripts and an online converter already exists. The only problem that might arise is when a user writes in Arab script but doesn't use Shadda and Sukun marks. To avoid this issue, edits in the Arabic script should be reviewed before being accepted. It is also possible to convert from Tifinagh/Latin to Arabic but not vice versa. --GeekEmad (talk) 14:13, 9 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Follow-up[edit source]

@GeekEmad: I substantially agree with your suggestions, and with the idea of putting a converter in place. But to do much of this–especially to try to combine projects—you are going to have to get some buy-in from the other project communities. Alternatively, since everything here is under free license, you can certainly copy appropriate pages from other projects into this one [with attribution], then try to move to get your project approved. Try to get explicit buy-in first; use the other approach if that gets no response. StevenJ81 (talk) 00:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

@StevenJ81:, I'd like to clarify that I do not speak any of these varieties; they got extinct from my region quite early. However, I follow a lot the development and the standardization process of Berber in Algeria and Morocco. For now, I think we should forget the merging of all Berber test wikis. Morocco does have a standard language under construction, which is probably the one used in Wp/zgh (I can't verify that). However, we can't force the other varieties' speakers to write only in Wp/zgh. As for Algeria, most Berber literary production is in Taqbaylit, if not all. So, my only suggestion currently is adding a converter between Tifinagh, Latin, and Arabic scripts. --GeekEmad (talk) 21:09, 10 July 2017 (UTC)Reply
@GeekEmad: Thank you for the clarification. This certainly helps explain why the Taqbaylit projects are so much more completely developed than the rest.
@MF-Warburg, SPQRobin: How do we get a converter like this in place?
GeekEmad, do consider importing worthwhile content from kab: and from the other tests. You'd just need to document any such importing with a template like en:Template:Translated page, placed on the talk page. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:31, 10 July 2017 (UTC)Reply
@StevenJ81: I'll gladly do that, however, I will need some help from Moroccan contributors since the Moroccan spelling system is a little different than than the Algerian one (more phonetic). --GeekEmad (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2017 (UTC)Reply
Coding language converters is a horribly complicated and arcane issue. Fortunately there is already a Tifinagh-Latin converter for Tachelhit (shi), which can probably be used as a basis. Adding Arabic conversion will be more complicated, I guess. In any case, the best way forward is to file a bug about it. --MF-W {a, b} 00:45, 14 July 2017 (UTC)Reply
@MF-Warburg: I dunno how you code the converter here, but the Latin-Arabic converter is pretty straightforward, at least using JavaScript and RegEx. --GeekEmad (talk) 07:16, 14 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Request for guidance/education[edit source]

I could use some guidance.

Based on policy, Wp/ber shouldn't exist, because we don't allow Wikipedias for collective codes. Is this "literary standard Berber" something real? Is this wiki written in one of the languages within the ber collective code?

Similarly, how different are zgh and tzm? Are these legitimately separate languages, or are these substantially the same thing?

Thanks for educating me. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:37, 1 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

@StevenJ81: for your second question, zgh is the ISO code for the official standardized variety of Berber in Morocco, which is based on the dialects of Middle Atlas represented by the ISO code tzm. zgh is generally based on tzm with influence from rif and shi. This is kinda similar to the situation of Norwegian with many dialects and a standard written language (or two). --GeekEmad (talk) 12:25, 2 August 2017 (UTC)Reply
@GeekEmad: Thank you for that.
Under those circumstances, as you try to move the zgh projects along, consider whether or not there may not be pages in the tzm projects (or even the rif and shi projects) that should be incorporated into the zgh test. Because everything is under CC-BY-SA 3.0 and GFDL, there's no impediment to copying, but be sure if you do that, either include that you've imported in the edit summary of the page, or even better, create a template analogous to en:Template:Translated page or fr:Modèle:Traduit de and place it on the talk page of the page in question. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)Reply
If it's allowed me to discuss, I would exclusively support deletion of Wp/ber project. But since those contents are not actually harmful, I think moving/merging articles to either Wp/tzm or Wp/zgh would be love (sic)? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:24, 4 October 2017 (UTC)Reply
(Wrong word. Probably "desirable" or something?)
Agreed. Would you mind checking the activity of Wp/ber for me? I think it's been pretty dormant. Then go ahead and put in an RfD. The problem here is going to be getting someone to tell us where the content should go. Assuming the test passes through an RfD, if no one tells us that, we'll either have to export it to an XML file, or else simply mark it as deleted, fully protect all the pages, and then just leave it in place, semi-hidden, until someone comes along to tell us what to do with it. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)Reply