Talk:Wp/krj/Panguna nga pahina

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Orthography[edit source]

Greetings to everyone. The first striking thing I noticed about this Test Wiki is its orthography. My question (or contention) is, why use 'o' for /o/ and /u/ and 'u' for the middle sound? I am a Karay-a myself and have not so far encountered something like this before. What I have encountered though is the opposite: 'u' for /o/ and /u/ and 'o' for the middle sound. I think this was in a creative writing class with Dr. Leoncio Deriada. Dr. Deriada, being very influential to many Panay writers, may have influenced others (or the other way around) with this system of writing. Still, regardless of whether an 'authority' uses or advocates for it or not, I believe that this shift from the Hiligaynon-influenced Kinaray-a spellings must be explained here. Because if I were only to be asked, I'd prefer the Hiligaynon-based spelling be used (since many Karay-a writers are in fact using this system of spelling) or the suggested spelling system of Chris Sundita: 'o' or 'u' for /o/ and /u/, and 'e' for the middle sound since 'e' is also used to represent the middle sound in other Philippine language spellings, such as in Ilokano and Pangasinan.--emanlerona 16:27, 15 March 2007

Re: Orthography
I am a Kinaray-a as well. I have heard of Deriada, Mulato, Paguntalan and Ruelo. But I am not advocating any of their theories. My efforts are not directly from what they have made before but rather from the fact that the use of 'e' would be pretty much confusing when it comes to loan words in Spanish and English. In fact our schwa sound is much different from the schwa sound in Ilokano and Pangasinan where it is almost similar to the 'short e' sound (some places even interchange 'e' and 'schwa' when speaking especially in Cordillera).
This is a matter of standardization of Kinaray-a spelling which is pretty much needed for the development of our language. This system eases out the confusion especially in load words.
Example:
How would you read the loan word, "semento?" something like "sumunto?"
Unlike use the letter 'u' exclusively for schwa sound, confusing is reduced, or better, avoided.
Please try writing a technical essay with loan words using 'e' and you will know what I mean.


Re: Re: Orthography
Thanks for the immediate response. I know what you mean. So your reservation is based on how our sounds will fit into foreign spellings?
I think you agree when I say that we do NOT have the /e/ sound. Do you pronounce "semento" with /e/ sounds? In our language (just like many but not all Philippine languages), /i/ and /e/ are allophones, but the more dominant sound is /i/. In the case of semento, we usually pronounce it as /siminto/. Insakto man hambal ko? Why not then pronounce loans the Kinaray-a way? Semento can be spelled siminto, and it is perfectly intelligible to me. --emanlerona 09:52, 19 March 2006
Re: Re: Re: Orthography
E-mail from nnlachica@yahoo.com for ronaldpanaligan@yahoo.com:
Bulahan ikaw nga nagakabalaka sa atun Kinaray-a nga hambal. Ako si Nenen Geremia-Lachica, taga-Sibalom nga kar-on rugya napadpad sa New Jersey. Pareho kami ni Sheryl - guilty man takun sa pag-usar interchangeably kang “u” sa hugut nga “o” kag sa schwa sound sa pagsulat kang Kinaray-a. Bukut takun ti linguist pero ipaambit ko man rugya ang na-diskusyonan run namun kauna pa. Pasensya lang kamo hay medyo lawid dya.
Ang pag-standardize kang Kinaray-a natun nga hambal/lengwahe una ko nabatian kang mga 1992-1993 sa meeting kato anay nga ginhiwat sa Autajay Resort. Sa meeting nagtambong ang mga aktibo kato nga nagasulat sa Kinaray-a – gamay man lang to nga grupo. Siguro sarang kami sa siyam ukon pulo kato. Guest speaker namun si Ms. Abadiano kag rugto man si Prof. Leo Deriada, ang NCCA rep/chairperson kato for Region VI.
Sa proposal kang standardization kang pagsulat sa Kinaray-a, handa man kami magsuporta ugaring may mga bagay nga wara namun ginbaton. Sakto ikaw sa paghambal nga pinasahi ang atun Kinaray-a schwa sound. Lain tana dya sangsa Ilocano nga ginasulat pinaagi sa letra “e”. Sa grupo namun kato, “u” gid man ang amun ginausar sa pagsulat kang schwa sound natun. Ugaring, indi man mahimutig nga may dyan kita nga hugut nga “o” nga huni (ukon “oo”) kag ang “u” amo ang letra natun kadya, gani “lupa, sulat, utang, puto, buaya, buntod, kusina, k.i.p…” Makuon kita nga ria nga pagsulat nagapakita kang atun pagpalupu sa matinaas-taasun/gamhanan/hegemonic nga Tagalog kag Hiligaynon pero existing run dya nga huni ang hugut nga “o”. Thus the use of this letter “u” nga ginbasi man sa mas gamhanan pa gid nga lengwahe nga Ininglis. To echo Jigz suggestion, build on something that already exists.
Sa proposal nga e-standardize ang Kinaray-a (mangin lopa, solat, otang, poto, boaya, bontod, kosina, k.i.p…) ang guwa nga nabuhinan ang atun letra nga magrepresentar kang hugut nga “o” ukon “oo” nga huni bangud ang “u” mangin exclusive sa schwa sound lang gid.
Ang amun suggestion kato nga ginsuportahan man gani ni Sir Deriada, nga ang schwa sound igasulat sa letra “u” man gihapon pero butangan lang abi ka distinguishing mark agud ipakita nga schwa sound kag amo dya ang extra nga huni sa atun hambal. Mayad man siguro nga may dyan liwan nga pagtipon / meeting / general assembly ang mga manunulat, media people, estudyante, manunudlo, k.i.p. para hambalan dya nga labing importante nga topiko.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Orthography
Kon /ü/ rün lang bi usarün natün? Mayad pa guro bay.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Orthography
Yes, Nenen, a meeting of minds would be more than just great. Buhay run gid man siguro nga waay nakatipun-tipun ang mga manunulat kag maaram sa Kinaray-a, gani tiempo run dya nga maghinugpong liwat para madiskusyonan ang amu dya nga mga bagay. By the way, retired run si Dr. Deriada from UPV, as well as from NCLA. Ang nagbulos kana sa NCLA si Dr. Zenaida French. Pay last term na run dya nga tuig, and I think she's thinking of passing the Western Visayan chairmanship to John Iremil.
Dumduman ko nga kang 2004, nag-meet kami sa Fray Luis Center to discuss a possible meeting (or convention?) with writers and literary scholars to discuss about language issues in Hiligaynon, Kinaray-a and Aklanon, among other literary problems. Kun panumdumun ko lang ang posibilidad kang pag-take off kang mga Kinaray-a writers and scholars sa pagdiskusyon parti sa atun lenggwahe sa amu dya nga okasyon, nami gid daad. After ka'to garing, waay ragid kami nakakit-anay liwat. So waay gid na-materialize ang meeting with other writers in Panay. But my idea is very much in agreement with yours if you say (because it seems to me you're implying that) meeting and agreement among (but not limited to) scholars and writers is necessary if we want to standardize spellings in Kinaray-a.
With regard to the use of [diacritical] marks for the signification of schwa sounds, medyo interesante dya. One is because, as I see it, it is against Filipino orthography. Not one Philippine language I know of uses diacritical marks in ordinary spelling to signify phonemes. Sa stress siguro, naggamit si Kaufmann sa ana nga 1930 Dictionary. But this is still interesting to see, that is, if ordinary Kinaray-a writers really get to use it. What I mean to say is, if we writers and scholars agree with anything at all, the harder part is to get others to start using the system that we wish to standardize.
And lastly, about the Kinaray-a schwa: I am now trying to learn Ilocano. It has actually been 2 years since I started learning Ilocano. If it helps also, I am learning the La Union variety (or dialect), but have also been trying to familiarize myself with the more northern varieties. So what I know is that there is NO SIGNIFICANT difference between the schwa of Kinaray-a and the scwha of Ilocano. If there is any perceived difference, it is only because of the northern varieties (or dialects) that rarely or do not at all use the schwa sound in their words. --emanlerona 16:48, 20 March 2006

Dialects[edit source]

By the way, sa mga natingala sa ginkalain kang sahi kang Kinaray-a nga ginagamit ko sa mga pinangsulat ko sa babaw, ako nagagamit kang Alimodian-Kinaray-a. I firmly believe that my variety of Kinaray-a is as legitimate a Kinaray-a as the Antique variety. The reason I am saying this is because of the edition an editor made on my poem in a certain magazine. The editions, however, were lexical. He changed Alimodian-Karay-a terms to Antique ones. And I don't think that is right.

With this, let me drive you to my point: ang mga Kinaray-a halin sa mga nagkalain-lain nga banwa lain-lain man. I believe there should be a study of the different dialects of Kinaray-a. I believe that one of the probable reasons why there have been miscountings of Kinaray-a and Hiligaynon speakers in the past is the Hiligaynon-Kinaray-a dialects confusing both the speakers themselves and census-takers. --emanlerona 16:48, 20 March 2006

Wikimedia Philippines[edit source]

(I'm very sorry, but I am not a Kinaray-a speaker. I do ask for translation of this message into the Kinaray-a language.)

My fellow Karay-a Wikipedians, I am requesting from your community today to join in helping towards the establishment and development of Wikimedia Philippines, the Philippine chapter of the Wikimedia Foundation. You may join the Association by signing our participants' list. You may also view our Association Articles and Incorporation at Bylaws, give comments and/or suggestions or translate into Kinaray-a, and vote for the approval of the Articles of Incorporation so that it may be forwarded to the Wikimedia Foundation chapters committee.

I hope this becomes a successful process, and we appreciate the help. Thank you very much. --Sky Harbor 17:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kinaray-a Translation at BetaWiki[edit source]

164 messages have been translated out of a total of 1584.

This means that 1420 messages remain to be translated.


(NB: this figure could be out-of-date by the end of the day). --Jose77 04:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling[edit source]

Why take shortcuts? Wouldn't it be better and more accurate if distinctions were made between the various vowel sounds? Let's forget about the standards made by other linguists and "experts" on the language for now. The current spelling system does not closely reflect the sounds of the vowels at all. Here are my recommendations:

A a
E e
I i
O o
U u
Ə ə

Let's focus on the O, U, and Ə. If you use O for two different vowel sounds, people who have never heard Kinaray-a being spoken will be mis-pronouncing the relevant words. Using the examples above:

One will never hear a native kinaray-a speaker saying poLOS - it's either puLOS OR puLUS.

"Busy", for instance, will be pronounced wrongly by many who are unfamiliar with the language if spelled as "Saku" - they will most like say "SAkoo". However, if the schwa character (Ə,ə) is used for the schwa sound, it will be more accurately pronounced (not necessarily correctly, but it will be closer to the actual pronunciation than using a "u"). Aside from that, there is already a u sound which sounds like a short "oo" - when you say "help" in kinaray-a, it's pronounced as "BUlig" and not "BOlig", so it should be spelled as "bulig"; the word "get" should be spelled "bə-əl" and not "bu-ul" because that would be pronounced by non-karay-as as "boo-ool"....

The title of this page, for example, should be written as "Panguna nga Pahina", because it is pronounced "pangUna nga paHIna". Life is "kinaBUhi" and NOT "kinaBOhi", so it should be spelling phonetically.

Just some recommendations, because the present system is awkward. Let's go for accuracy so that each vowel has, as much as possible, only one sound, rather than taking shortcuts and using one vowel for more than one sound. Hope my suggestions will be considered.

--Sedotes 01:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good point Sedotes, however what we want to achieve is the ease in writing. We are aiming for a written language that is both faithful to orthography and at the same time easily written by people. Ə ə would be hard to write in long hand as well as in encoding. Using more familiar letters would ease readability and would encourage usage and writing among the masses.
Paanad-anad lang man dya. Gintirawan kang SIL (Summer Institute of Linguistics) nga magbohat kang Bible himo gamit ang Kinaray-a, pareho man ang gingamit da nga pagbato-bato sa rudya. Ang ginhimo da, ginpaanad nanda ang manga manogbasa nga kabigun ang tonog kang O para sa bugu kag lawid nga O kag ang tonog kang U para sa . Sono sa resulta kang anda nga eksperimento, sa manga wara pa gabasa okon gasolat kang Kinaray-a (in which case most of the people), hulas lang man nga nabuul kang mga manogbasa.
Naanad lang abi kita sa pagsolat gamit ang pagbato-bato kang Tagalog kang Hiligaynon amo rian nga budlayan kita makitbagay. :) Pero optimistiko man sa gihapon ako nga sa amo dya nga proyekto, makabolig dya agud mangin mapinoslanun ang Kinaray-a. :)
And by the way, the short O sound is a foreign sound in Kinaray-a. Therefore, the original vowels sounds would only be:
a, i, o, and Ə. We will use the letters a, i, o and u to represent these sounds respectively. We will borrow the foreign letter E to represent the foreign sound of the short e. Because of the absence of the short o sound in the native language, we will use the letter O to represent the long o sound. We will use the letter U for the Ə sound.
Thanks for your comment.
--RonaldPanaligan
The third Kinaray-a Language Congress sponsored by Paranubliun-Antique and Translators Association of the Philippines held on February 8, 2008 attended by almost all active kinaray-a writers, cultural workers and cultural organizations in the province of Antique has decided to abide by the standards used by Paranubliun-Antique and most kinaray-a writers. Vowels in Kinaray-a are consists of a, i, o, u and u (which represents the schwa sound). The vowel e on the other hand is being used in spelling barrowed languages. Lupa (land), tubig (water), bulan (moon) shall be spelled as mentioned. Baklun (to buy), kan-un (to eat), pamulong-pulong or pulong(meeting)shall be spelled as mentioned. Hypen shall be used in glotal words that are prevalent in Kinaray-a like tak-an (ran out of patience), bul-an (get something from) and also in words such as taga-Sanjose. The use of words such as rugya, rigya, rudya, digya, duya (which all means "here")is free according to speaker/writer's will or locality.
Please visit Paranubliun-Antique or Translators Association of the Philippines for more information on the agreed usage of Kinaray-a spellings/orthography. Salamat gid!
-Luyaw

Virtual meeting[edit source]

My fellow Karay-a Wikipedians,

You are all cordially invited to the First Philippine Wikipedia Virtual Meetup to be held on May 3, 2008 at 8:00 PM Philippine Standard Time (UTC+8). We all hope that you can make it. For more information, please see the English Wikipedia. Likewise, please indicate your willingness to attend so you may be sent an invitation to the conference.

Thanks and we hope to see you there! --Sky Harbor 14:31 2 Mayo 2008 (UTC)